# What makes a Stradivarius so good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264 "2015-05-04T19:01:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/1 "2015-05-04T19:01:34Z")
Can we use cutting lasers and micro-perfect measurements today to recreate the sound of the Stradivarius violin? If not, why not? What makes them so unique? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/2 "2015-05-04T19:05:51Z")
I feel sure this was covered in the Straight Dope, but, part of it is the aging – time causes changes in the wood (and there is also the chemicals in the varnish) that can’t be duplicated unless it’s aged a few centuries. There are also some Stradivariuses – his earlier models – that haven’t aged particularly well; Stradivari took years to learn his craft. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/3 "2015-05-04T19:18:59Z")
Some recent research showed that the wood used in the violins had unique properties due to the way the local climate affected the growth cycle of the trees in that period. No amount of precision construction can change the attributes of the unique wood, although maybe treatment of existing wood could produce the same results. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/4 "2015-05-04T19:25:02Z")
There was a [blind test a few years ago](http://www.thestrad.com/cpt-latests/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments/), comparing a Strad to modern instruments. The violinists actually preferred one of the modern instruments. So their reputation may be overrated. (This might be a good thing, as the prices have gotten insane for them, so that few musicians can afford to buy one on their own.) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/5 "2015-05-04T20:22:52Z")
In general, for a stringed instrument to be excellent, it must: - Sound good - the basic _timbre_/tone profile of the instrument sounds good. - Cut/Sound Pure - i.e., emphasizes the frequencies that are at the core of the tone and reduces the frequencies that are not. Hard to explain, but you want a tight distribution of frequencies - so the wood is emphasizing the good stuff and “dampening” the clashy/overlapping stuff. Clashy = harmonic overtones that don’t sound pleasing; overlapping = frequencies that overlap with other instruments so yours sounds “lost in the mix”. This one acoustic guitar collector and acoustic engineer who hangs out on guitar boards discusses how older guitars have better cut. If so, it must be due to how old wood ages and gets played in. - Be responsive - a great instrument is like a Frisbee Dog; before you’ve thought about what you want to do, they are ready to play! I hear about those sound tests. I also hear the fact that many rockers leave their best gear at home and bring modern replicas. In both cases - totally cool - I wouldn’t want to tour with instruments worth that much. But the _responsiveness_ of a truly great instrument is not something you can capture in a sound test and, to me, represents, oh, 80% of why I would value something like that. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/6 "2015-05-04T20:39:35Z")
Some people claim it was the wood. Some people claim it was the varnish. Nobody really knows. > **[Stradivarius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius)** > > A Stradivarius is one of the string instruments, such as violins, violas, cellos, and guitars, crafted by members of the Stradivari family, particularly Antonio Stradivari (Latin: Antonius Stradivarius), in Cremona, Italy, during the late 17th and early 18th centuries. These instruments are known for their craftsmanship, tonal quality, and lasting legacy, and are considered some of the finest ever made. Stradivari's violins, in particular, are coveted by musicians and collectors, with many sell... > [@](#): > > Nonetheless, some maintain that the very best Stradivari have unique superiorities.[28] Various attempts at explaining these supposed qualities have been undertaken, most results being unsuccessful or inconclusive. Over the centuries, numerous theories have been presented – and debunked – including an assertion that the wood was salvaged from old cathedrals. Dendrochronology, or tree-ring dating, has proved this false. > > A more modern theory attributes tree growth during a time of global cold temperatures during the Little Ice Age associated with unusually low solar activity of the Maunder Minimum, circa 1645 to 1750, during which cooler temperatures throughout Europe are believed to have caused stunted and slowed tree growth, resulting in unusually dense wood.[29] Further evidence for this “Little Ice Age theory” comes from a simple examination of the dense growth rings in the wood used in Stradivari’s instruments.[30] Two researchers – University of Tennessee tree-ring scientist Henri Grissino-Mayer and Lloyd Burckle, a Columbia University climatologist – published in the journal Dendrochronologia their conclusions supporting the theory on increased wood density.[31] > > In 2008, Dutch researchers announced further evidence that wood density caused the claimed high quality of these instruments. After examining the violins with X-rays, the researchers found that these violins all have extremely consistent density, with relatively low variation in the apparent growth patterns of the trees that produced this wood.[4] > > Yet another possible explanation is that the wood originated in and was harvested from the forests of northern Croatia.[32] This maple wood is known for its extreme density resulting from the slow growth caused by harsh Croatian winters. Croatian wood was a commodity traded by Venetian merchants of the era, and is used today by local luthiers and craftsfolk for musical instruments. > > Some research points to wood preservatives used in that day as contributing to the resonant qualities. Joseph Nagyvary[33][34] reveals that he has always held the belief that there are a wide range of chemicals that will improve the violin’s sound. In a 2009 study co-authored with Drs. Renald Guillemette and Clifford Spiegelman, Nagyvary managed to get hold of shavings from a Stradivarius violin and examined them: burning small amounts to find their chemical composition showed that the wood shavings contained “borax, fluorides, chromium and iron salts.”[35] He also found that the wood had decayed a little, to the extent that the filter plates in the pores between the wood’s component tracheids had rotted away, perhaps while the wood was stored in or under water in the Venice lagoon before Stradivarius used it. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/7 "2015-05-04T21:09:09Z")
I saw a documentary that posited it was because the wood had traveled downriver and sat submerged in water for months before being bought. [Here’s an old article -](http://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/oct/14/books.guardianreview2) I don’t know if it’s been rejected as a theory or not. I really know nothing about it and couldn’t tell a sound produced by a Stradivarius against any halfway decent violin. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/8 "2015-05-04T21:23:49Z")
I would also add that Strads got hyped by the dealers in the UK that were the main sellers of old instruments in the mid-1800’s through the early 1900’s. Amati’s, Guarneris, etc. are similarly excellent. Building a responsive, great sounding instrument is hard - wood, build, finish, what have you. Then finding an old one that has been cared for - e.g., most Strads have had their neck replaced (to conform to a change in the standard for neck angles in violins that came later); was this done correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/9 "2015-05-05T12:44:53Z")
It is a really good example of how we manage to fool ourselves. You’d think that the quality of a Stradivarius is obvious. surely it must be otherwise why pay the stratospheric price? But actually the real question is not “what makes them so good” but a rather more fundamental “_are_ they so good?” and the blind testing linked to by **Dewey Finn** suggests that, no, they are not appreciably better than currently available instruments that cost an order of magnitude less. So all of the theories regarding wood and varnish etc. are pointless because if we can’t identify a difference it makes no sense to look for contributing factors to that non-existent difference. ---
**Author:** ![Gothic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Gothic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gothic)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/10 "2015-05-05T12:50:55Z")
Clarity of tone and works of art are what I took away from this article. > **[What makes the Stradivarius violin so special?](https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-13856203)** > > As a Stradivarius violin is sold in an online auction for a record £9.8m, what is it about the famous brand that brings musicians to their knees? ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/11 "2015-05-05T14:02:43Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is a really good example of how we manage to fool ourselves. You’d think that the quality of a Stradivarius is obvious. surely it must be otherwise why pay the stratospheric price? > > But actually the real question is not “what makes them so good” but a rather more fundamental “_are_ they so good?” and the blind testing linked to by **Dewey Finn** suggests that, no, they are not appreciably better than currently available instruments that cost an order of magnitude less. > > So all of the theories regarding wood and varnish etc. are pointless because if we can’t identify a difference it makes no sense to look for contributing factors to that non-existent difference. Let’s keep a perspective here. Strads are awesome. It’s just that there are modern violins that are marginally more awesome. Don’t get me wrong - most musicians would not have thought that their awesomeness would be matched, if not surpassed, so it was a really interesting study. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/12 "2015-05-05T14:34:13Z")
One drop of antiquity diluted in exponentially larger amounts of time results in even moar awesomer music than your so called “modern” instruments! IOW, they may be great instruments, but not objectively “better” than any number of other great instruments. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/13 "2015-05-05T16:29:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is a really good example of how we manage to fool ourselves. You’d think that the quality of a Stradivarius is obvious. surely it must be otherwise why pay the stratospheric price? > > But actually the real question is not “what makes them so good” but a rather more fundamental “_are_ they so good?” and the blind testing linked to by **Dewey Finn** suggests that, no, they are not appreciably better than currently available instruments that cost an order of magnitude less. > > So all of the theories regarding wood and varnish etc. are pointless because if we can’t identify a difference it makes no sense to look for contributing factors to that non-existent difference. Again - those debunking demo’s are as problematic as the hype for one specific make of violin. Are Strad’s priced way too high relative to other great, old violins and some modern great violins? Sure - that’s the human condition: take a “rule of thumb” (Strads are typically great) and blow it out of proportion. But is a random listening test the best way to differentiate a Strad vs. new violins? No - they do nothing to include the factor of responsiveness, which is a HUGE factor when it comes to understanding the appeal of great, old instruments. It’s like watching engineers get into nerd-wars using acoustic spectrum analysis to “verify” why one component of an instrument is better vs. another. It’s like that scene in Dead Poet’s Society where you try to “score” poetry. Kinda pointless and silly when you are ultimately dealing with art and subjective reactions. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/14 "2015-05-05T17:53:33Z")
**Wordman** , did you read the article **Dewey Finn** linked to? Or better yet, the original publications? They were not a “random listening test”, but rather, very well designed experiments that did a remarkable job of simulating the way violinists assess instruments in the real world. Professionals or very advanced students had the chance to play the test instruments for a significant amount of time. They were blinded (literally!) with welding goggles and even the scent of the instruments was, uh, blinded (?) as well. Check 'em out! [Study 1](http://www.pnas.org/content/109/3/760) [Study 2](http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7224.short) ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/15 "2015-05-05T18:33:45Z")
It’s still missing the point somewhat. Music, art, are things we do for our subjective edification—if that enjoyment is increased by having the same piece of music played on a Stradivarius, even if a modern instrument objectively sounds better, then it should be played on a Stradivarius. The history the instrument carries, its legend, those are valid factors that may influence the reception of the music. If garbage becomes art by putting it into a museum, then put it into a museum. And if the wine tastes better under such-and-such lighting conditions, then well, serve it under those conditions! Art has no pretense to be objective; to then create some objective criteria and show how it fails to fulfill them simply attacks the wrong target, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/16 "2015-05-05T19:07:28Z")
I heard about the same thing with regard to wind instruments. NPR had a show about a professor who is duplicating the antique mouthpieces used in century old saxophones. They duplicated the old ones using CAT scans and 3-D printing; then compared the sounds produced with those from modern instruments. To me, there was little difference-when you start using terms to describe sounds like “warm”, “bright”, “brassy”, etc., i think you are in the region of woo, not objectivity. The studies cited found that modern violins play as good (or better) than Strads. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/17 "2015-05-05T19:57:08Z")
I’m wondering about the fact that we’re taught that the Strad sound is the way string instruments are \*supposed to \*sound. They are the benchmark by which we judge all others, so by definition they come out ahead. Strads sound the best, because they succeed more than any others, at sounding like Strads. If they had never existed, we’d be using a different benchmark, and our concept of what a string instrument should sound like would be different. We’d be trying to emulate the Amati sound, or the Guarneri sound, as they would be, to our ears, what the instruments \*should \*sound like. ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/18 "2015-05-05T20:10:10Z")
**WordMan,** could you go into a little more detail about ‘responsiveness’? I’m not sure what you mean. I understand how a Frisbee dog can be responsive but I don’t get how that applies to a musical instrument. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/19 "2015-05-05T20:11:05Z")
According to Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes had his very own Strad: [http://www.thestrad.com/cpt-latests/was-sherlock-holmes-an-accomplished-violinist/](http://www.thestrad.com/cpt-latests/was-sherlock-holmes-an-accomplished-violinist/) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/20 "2015-05-05T20:19:02Z")
> [@D18](#): > > **Wordman** , did you read the article **Dewey Finn** linked to? Or better yet, the original publications? They were not a “random listening test”, but rather, very well designed experiments that did a remarkable job of simulating the way violinists assess instruments in the real world. Professionals or very advanced students had the chance to play the test instruments for a significant amount of time. They were blinded (literally!) with welding goggles and even the scent of the instruments was, uh, blinded (?) as well. > > Check 'em out! > > [Study 1](http://www.pnas.org/content/109/3/760) > [Study 2](http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7224.short) I read them back when they were published. Here’s my point: out of the bazillions of violins made, there are a “Top 1%.” These very few violins are superior in sound, responsiveness, etc. The relative differences between these tippy-top instruments are moot. Testing new examples of the Top 1% vs. old examples, or this make vs. that make, again, is a silly exercise. They are in the “bestest group” - and that is about all you can say. So the fact that Stradivarius was pegged as the BEST and some other Top 1%'er was rated higher in a sound test? Honestly, who the flip cares? It is a specious argument - “hey Jackson Pollocks sell for $100 Million, and DeKoonigs sell for $50million - let’s do a test to see if one is better!!!” Sigh. Pricing out the Top 1% has NOTHING to do with relative comparability of the instruments as tools. Some makes, models, specific instruments, etc., “acquire a luster” - i.e, get a premium value in the market. The fact that the Premium is 20x the price of a new Top 1% violin is just the way things work with Luxury goods. A 1959 Gibson Les Paul sells for $300,000 or so - their 1957 Goldtops are the EXACT SAME guitar with a gold finish vs. sunburst, but will sell for less than half - but there is no need to do a sound test. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264.md?page=2)