# What makes a Stradivarius so good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264 "2015-05-04T19:01:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/121 "2016-12-21T14:35:42Z")
From The NYTimes: [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/science/stradivari-violin-wood.html?module=WatchingPortal®ion=c-column-middle-span-region&pgType=Homepage&action=click&mediaId=thumb\_square&state=standard&contentPlacement=7&version=internal&contentCollection=www.nytimes.com&contentId=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2016%2F12%2F20%2Fscience%2Fstradivari-violin-wood.html&eventName=Watching-article-click&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/science/stradivari-violin-wood.html?module=WatchingPortal®ion=c-column-middle-span-region&pgType=Homepage&action=click&mediaId=thumb_square&state=standard&contentPlacement=7&version=internal&contentCollection=www.nytimes.com&contentId=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2016%2F12%2F20%2Fscience%2Fstradivari-violin-wood.html&eventName=Watching-article-click&_r=0) [QUOTE=NYTimes] For hundreds of years, the best violin players have almost unanimously said they prefer a Stradivari or a Guarneri instrument. Why nobody has been able to replicate that sound remains one of the most enduring mysteries of instrument building. A new study, published on Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggests that answers may lie in the wood: Mineral treatments, followed by centuries of aging and transformation from playing, might give these instruments unique tonal qualities. [/QUOTE] Sigh. More silliness - this article presupposes the superiority of these instruments, just like the other article cited in this thread proves that listeners and players often choose non-old, non-Cremona instruments in blind tests. Humans are weird. I will say it again: truly great instruments offer superior performance vs. lesser examples. Beyond that, claiming that one maker or type is head and shoulders above everything else in that top category is hype. If you can get $millions for your Strad, more power to you, but there are plenty of wonderful instruments out there for less. Regarding the topic in this article - mineral deposits found in the wood of some Cremonese violins. Okay, yay minerals. In guitar circles, there has been a hype trend for “sinker redwood” tops, i.e., flat-top tops made from a log that was submerged decades+ ago as part of some logging operation and recently recovered. > **[Taylor Guitars](https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/features/woods/top-woods/sinker-redwood)** > > Taylor Guitars is a leading manufacturer of acoustic and electric guitars. As well you can build to order via our custom guitar program. Taylor guitars are widely considered among the best-sounding and easiest to play guitars in the world. The tops look dark and streaky given the mineral deposits that were absorbed into the wood over the years submerged. They have been held up as desirable, required premium upcharges, etc. Over the past few years, most folks have come back and said that they sound just fine, but not stand out. So it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/122 "2016-12-21T19:33:25Z")
Yeah - silliness. Over the past year I’ve had several discussions w/ fiddlemakers, and my wife has attended various seminars and clinics (including bow repair at Oberlin, **Elendil** ). It seems I’ve heard more consistently that the best fiddles made today can hold their own with a Strad or any other fiddle. Also, Strads/etc cover a wide gamut. Some are better at some things than others. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/123 "2016-12-21T19:36:32Z")
I guess I should add that the silliness isn’t limited to fiddles and guitars. Last summer I was at a banjo camp, and one extremely well-known picker/maker was going on about the precise alloy composition and heating/cooling process for the tone rings on certain old banjos, claiming it made a difference and couldn’t be faithfully reproduced. I’d imagine the number of folk who could detect and appreciate any such difference would be mighty small - both in terms of pickers OR listeners. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/124 "2016-12-21T19:45:51Z")
Couldn’t they simply measure the angle of the listeners mouth to determine how much grinnin’ was achieved? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/125 "2017-03-13T12:25:10Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > An article in the New York Times about the recovered violin says, “After the theft, Mr. Totenberg, who had owned the violin for 38 years, told CBS News in 1981 that it had taken two decades of playing the instrument before it reached its potential. ‘It took some time to wake it up,’ he said, ‘to work it out, find all the things that it needed, the right kind of strings and so on and so on.’” In another article, he said that after the theft, he bought a Guarneri to replace it, but needed to relearn the fingerings. > > That’s interesting. Earlier I think I linked to a blind comparison of Stradivarius and other older violins and high-end new ones. The results were that even experts weren’t able to tell the difference. But what Roman Totenberg is saying is that you need time with a fine instrument before you can use it to its full potential. NPR just reported that the violin will be played by a student of its former owner Roman Totenberg. NPR’s Nina Totenberg and her two sisters will be in the audience. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/126 "2017-03-16T11:43:22Z")
Link to text and audio versions of the report from Nina Totenberg: [A Stolen, Then Recovered, Stradivarius Returns To The Stage : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2017/03/14/519984134/a-stolen-then-recovered-stradivarius-returns-to-the-stage) Nice that a student of her dad’s that they think of as the “fourth Totenberg daughter” got to play it. Good closure. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/127 "2017-03-16T11:59:16Z")
Post No. 2 > [@RealityChuck](#): > > I feel sure this was covered in the Straight Dope, but, part of it is the aging – time causes changes in the wood (and there is also the chemicals in the varnish) that can’t be duplicated unless it’s aged a few centuries. > > There are also some Stradivariuses – his earlier models – that haven’t aged particularly well; Stradivari took years to learn his craft. Post No. 100 > [@ralph124c](#): > > What about age? the wood used to make some of these Strads is now over 300 years old. Wood deteriorates with time-is this a factor in the great sounds these violins emit? Made me laugh, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/128 "2017-03-16T12:02:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There was a [blind test a few years ago](http://www.thestrad.com/cpt-latests/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments/), comparing a Strad to modern instruments. The violinists actually preferred one of the modern instruments. > > So their reputation may be overrated. (This might be a good thing, as the prices have gotten insane for them, so that few musicians can afford to buy one on their own.) I’m going to go with the Little Ice Age produced some superior wood, which encouraged the violin makers of Cremona to develop techniques that have mostly been lost because they were no longer productive once the wood was not growing anymore, plus hype. After all, it’s not just Stradivarius, but Amati, del Gesu, and several others that are prized among the best players. “The best players” is key here, though. Who has heard someone’s kid who just started taking lessons scratch out “Three Blind Mice” on a Stradivarius? No, you hear Josh Bell play his, or Itzhak Perlman play his. And frankly, they could probably play anything and make it sound beautiful. I knew Josh Bell because we went to the same synagogue as teens, and I have heard him play an ordinary (well, good, but modern) violin, and he still makes you weep. The fact that the Cremona violins are exclusively played by the best players is going to enhance their reputations. So violins that are probably better, but not the gifts from the deity they are supposed to be, end up seeming better, because anyone who had heard one has heard it played by one of the virtuosos of the time. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/129 "2017-03-16T12:13:23Z")
Interesting passage in the article: [QUOTE=Mira Wang, Totenberg’s student] “It’s like meeting a new stranger, but the most fabulous stranger you can imagine,” she says. Musicians know that every great instrument is like an individual, she observes. “So when I first got it, I truly thought the violin hated me. Great masterpieces like these they have their own character. They don’t let you do anything you like. So as a player, being able to control the violin, it’s always a tricky business.” “You need time to learn how … to be friends with the instrument, and what it likes and what it doesn’t, and to discover the beauty of the true great master, you just need time,” she adds. [/QUOTE] A post above notes that Totenberg said it took 20 years to figure out this violin. Going back to a discussion laced throughout this thread, there is clearly something about this violin’s responsiveness that these top players are trying to dial into. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/130 "2017-03-16T14:43:47Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Link to text and audio versions of the report from Nina Totenberg: [A Stolen, Then Recovered, Stradivarius Returns To The Stage : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2017/03/14/519984134/a-stolen-then-recovered-stradivarius-returns-to-the-stage) > > Nice that a student of her dad’s that they think of as the “fourth Totenberg daughter” got to play it. Good closure. Very good indeed - thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/131 "2017-03-16T15:01:27Z")
[QUOTE=Mira Wang, Totenberg’s student] “It’s like meeting a new stranger, but the most fabulous stranger you can imagine,” she says. Musicians know that every great instrument is like an individual, she observes. “So when I first got it, I truly thought the violin hated me. Great masterpieces like these they have their own character. They don’t let you do anything you like. So as a player, being able to control the violin, it’s always a tricky business.” “You need time to learn how … to be friends with the instrument, and what it likes and what it doesn’t, and to discover the beauty of the true great master, you just need time,” she adds. [/QUOTE] Good god, do people really believe this? Or is it just an act, so the average rube thinks top-level musicians are super human? It’s just an inanimate instrument. It’s not a demon in violin form that needs it’s ego as well as its string stroked. “A poor carpenter always blames his tools.” ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/132 "2017-03-16T15:08:56Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Good god, do people really believe this? Or is it just an act, so the average rube thinks top-level musicians are super human? > > It’s just an inanimate instrument. It’s not a demon in violin form that needs it’s ego as well as its string stroked. > > “A poor carpenter always blames his tools.” Serious question: Isn’t this just an artist’s way of saying something a test pilot would phrase differently? “I took it out for a shake down flight and still need to get a feel for how it maneuvers, but I am figuring it out. When you’re flying Mach 2 in a new jet, every little variation is magnified.” ??? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/133 "2017-03-16T15:27:12Z")
When I was appraising personal property, I got to see over a hundred fake Stradivarius violins. No real ones. Brand name recognition has a lot to do with its value: everyone knows Stradivarius. People would call us about once a month with a violin they just knew had to be genuine. Our first question was always: “How do you know?” and the typical response was “it’s signed.” Stradivarius didn’t sign any of his violins. The most ludicrous was the fellow who said it had a label that read “Stradivarius and Sons”. In English. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/134 "2017-03-16T15:30:57Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > When I was appraising personal property, I got to see over a hundred fake Stradivarius violins. No real ones. Brand name recognition has a lot to do with its value: everyone knows Stradivarius. People would call us about once a month with a violin they just knew had to be genuine. Our first question was always: “How do you know?” and the typical response was “it’s signed.” Stradivarius didn’t sign any of his violins. The most ludicrous was the fellow who said it had a label that read “Stradivarius and Sons”. In English. I worked in a bookstore in college, and a guy once called to ask how much his “Complete works of Shakespeare” was worth. He said it was published in 1910, so it had “all the ones he’d written up till then.” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/135 "2017-03-16T15:35:08Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Good god, do people really believe this? Or is it just an act, so the average rube thinks top-level musicians are super human? > > It’s just an inanimate instrument. It’s not a demon in violin form that needs it’s ego as well as its string stroked. > > “A poor carpenter always blames his tools.” Anything handmade will have slight variations. Wood itself is not consistent. Maybe part of what makes a top-flight musician is being able to detect the variations and work with/around them. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/136 "2017-03-16T15:45:49Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I worked in a bookstore in college, and a guy once called to ask how much his “Complete works of Shakespeare” was worth. He said it was published in 1910, so it had “all the ones he’d written up till then.” I wouldn’t pay a penny for anything that didn’t include Shakespeare’s _Four Gentlemen and a Lady from Blawnox_ (1911). ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/137 "2017-03-17T00:53:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I wouldn’t pay a penny for anything that didn’t include Shakespeare’s _Four Gentlemen and a Lady from Blawnox_ (1911). Didn’t he co-author that one with Orson Bean? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/138 "2017-03-17T02:42:28Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Didn’t he co-author that one with Orson Bean? It’s been awhile since I read it, but I think maybe Bean just wrote the foreword. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264/139 "2017-03-17T05:54:37Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Good god, do people really believe this? Or is it just an act, so the average rube thinks top-level musicians are super human? > > It’s just an inanimate instrument. It’s not a demon in violin form that needs it’s ego as well as its string stroked. > > “A poor carpenter always blames his tools.” Hmm, have you ever used a tool that was ungainly at first, but was indispensably useful once you learned how to use it? Instruments are all like that, but in even more subtle ways. No matter which guitar you pick up out of a batch of guitars, even if your selecting from identical CNC made guitars, it’s gonna have its own personality. It’s not caused by demons or anything, it’s just an artifact of variance in the manufacturing process and materials. You’ll have to change your playing style a bit to get the best out of each one of them. Some people just can’t adjust to certain guitars. The singer in my current band wants a Gibson of some sort, but he’s bought and sold several in a cavalcade of guitars he couldn’t mesh with. She wasn’t blaming the tool, she was bemoaning that it took her an unusual amount of time to learn to use it right. If I disagree with Mira Wang, its that she seems to think that this only applies to great instruments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-stradivarius-so-good/719264.md?page=6)