# What makes a tux a tux? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 26, 2001, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568 "2001-03-26T18:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/1 "2001-03-26T18:13:45Z")
While watching the Academy Awards show, I noticed that some of the men’s tuxedos looked (at least on television) like normal dark suits. What exactly are the defining features of a tuxedo? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/2 "2001-03-26T19:10:54Z")
My best WAG is that a tuxedo jacket has to be of a certain length & that tuxedo jacket material has a different “finish” than cloth used for regular old blazers. But then there are short tuxedo jackets … right? I usually only notice those among the staffs of upscale restaurants & hotels, however. Soup, I also wonder about neckties & tuxes like Steve Martin wore last night at the Oscars. When did it become OK for black neckties to accompany a tux, as opposed to a bowtie-type neckpiece? I like the necktie + tux look – I’m just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Kakkerlak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bb73d2/32.png) [@Kakkerlak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kakkerlak)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/3 "2001-03-26T21:01:17Z")
George Zimmer, save us ! I didn’t look too closely; Did Steve Martin have silk lapels, or was it just really a black suit? I feel (and this is one instance where I think common practice should trump formal definition) that a regular necktie isn’t proper with a tuxedo. Bowties are standard, and may be subjected to every kind of variation including band and string ties, but a regular necktie doesn’t cut it. Anyone know the correct name for the short ties worn with tuxedoes and vests? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/4 "2001-03-26T21:37:35Z")
Roachman, I think the broad, short neckpiece you have in mind is an ascot. Sometimes it’s called (improperly?) a cravat. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/5 "2001-03-26T23:32:49Z")
My (admittedly inexpensive) tuxedo, as near as I can tell, _is_ a black suit save the following: [ul][li]Satin lapels and trim on opening of (fake) outer pockets[/li][li]Satin stripe down outside of legs[/li][li]The jacket only has one button in front, and one on each cuff. All of them are satin-covered.[/li][li]There are no belt loops on the pants, which have an adjustable waistband.[/li][/ul] The cloth seems to be slightly heavier than those in any of the suits I’ve owned, but the difference is not drastic. The cut of the jacket is no different from a suit jacket or blazer. The waistband of the trousers should not show; it’s supposed to be covered by either a cummerbund ( **not** “cumberbun”), a vest, or the (closed) jacket of a double-breasted tux. What of these features define a tuxedo? I’m not sure, and I for some reason doubt that you’ll find complete agreement even among the supposed “experts.” ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/6 "2001-03-26T23:43:49Z")
I’m pretty sure it’s that seam along the outside edge of the pants that makes the difference, along with the satin lapels. Had Steve Martin’s outfit lacked either of those, it would have been an ordinary business suit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/7 "2001-03-27T00:04:26Z")
I like to wear jeans. I never have the opportunity to dress up, so please excuse a dumb question. You’re wearing a tuxedo. Maybe a white dinner jacket. How do people know you’re not the waiter? ---
**Author:** ![Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/8 "2001-03-27T12:19:53Z")
I’ve done a little surfing: the only info I can find is that the tuxedo was created about 100 years ago by someone who wanted a dinner jacket without tails. So when does a suit become a tux? Is it the satin or silk lapels? The stripe on the pants? Any fashion designers out there who can answer? Does Georgio or Calvin read the Straight Dope? ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/9 "2001-03-27T13:40:02Z")
Clothes-horse checking in. Let me see if I can help out. My grandmother was a seamstress and made and sold men’s clothing (including tuxedos) for 50 years. Here’s what she taught me: A tuxedo’s pants and jacket always match in color (black - maybe midnight blue). If you’re wearing a white dinner jacket, you’re not wearing a tuxedo -you’re wearing a white dinner jacket and black pants (both a tux and a white dinner jacket constitute “semi-formal” wear. Only white tie and tails is considered “formal” wear). Double-breasted tuxs (and suits) are harder to wear well. The double-breasting draws attention to the middle of your body. If you’re on the heavy side, stay with the single breasted and make sure that the jacket isn’t too small. Nothing looks worse that someone in a suit that doesn’t fit. You don’t wear a belt with a tux, as was pointed out, you wear braces (only the cheap ones have adjustable waists). You can either get a peaked lapel (like on a suit) or a shawl collar (no peak), and they don’t have to be of a different material than the body of the jacket (my tux is wool with a satin shawl collar). Peaked lapel’s are considered the more conservative, traditional style. Most trousers come with a satin strip down the outside seam. Tux trousers are the only dress trousers that should not be cuffed. If you wear the cummberbund, the litle pleats point up. I happen to think that the only proper color for cummerbunds is black, but some guys were matching cummerbunds and ties. Looks a little cheap and tacky to me, but that may just be me. Don’t wear a fake bow tie - learn how to tie a real one. You can tie your own shoes, right? Its the same principle -its just around your neck and you have to do it while looking in the mirror. Long ties (along with bollo ties, etc.) are out. No ruffled shirts. Ever. No, not even then. Plain, flat front shirt with unobtrusive studs. French cuffs with unobtrusive cufflinks. Mine are onyx. Don’t wear a tux before 6:00 p.m. Remember that rules were made to be broken. The old saying that “every man looks good in a tux” is false. In some cases, they still just look like ugly guys in a tux. ---
**Author:** ![SirRay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@SirRay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirRay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/10 "2001-03-27T13:45:19Z")
Johnny L.A. I remember one fashion-challenged friend of mine who wore black slacks, white shirt, and black vest. Everyone at the club thought he was a waiter/busbody, and kept asking him where the bathrooms were, asked him to take their empty glasses, etc., until I told him to lose the vest. Could be a good icebreaker to meet women, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/11 "2001-03-27T14:01:11Z")
Good post, **plnnr**. So when does one wear a white dinner jacket, and when a tuxedo? ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/12 "2001-03-27T14:30:10Z")
White dinner jackets, like white suede bucks, aren’t worn before Memorial Day or after Labor Day - they’re both “summer” attire. Both are acceptable for semi-formal occasions, but the black just seems a little more formal in my book. Unless you’re an ambassador, a conductor, or going to the White House you can probably skip the white tie and tails. I happen to think that its even overkill for a groom to where it (and if the groom wears it, the rest of his wedding party don’t) for an evening wedding, but again, that’s may just be me. The best tip my grandmother ever gave me about dressing well: Never leave the house with scuffed shoes. You can always tell the mark of a gentleman by the condition of his shoes. To this day I polish my shoes ever two weeks, buff them out every week, use shoe trees, never wear the same pair two days in a row,and have them resoled and heeled as soon needed. Good shoes are expensive, but if you take proper care of them they’ll last a lifetime. PS Patent leather opera pumps go with a tux, as do plain toed oxfords. Wingtips and anything with a buckle are out. Don’t wear sneakers with a tux. You may think you’re being cool or making some statement about how much you’re really a jeans and sneakers kind of guy and just wearing the tux because you have to. In reality, you look like a complete ass. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/13 "2001-03-27T14:32:44Z")
**plnnr** , I think I just fell in cyber-love! I’m a self-professed psuedo-slave to style (not fashion, there’s a difference). Your post was very refreshing to read. Oh, and regarding the old saying about every man looking good in a tux? I’ve always changed to 'every man looks _better_ in a tux. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/14 "2001-03-27T14:53:07Z")
You’re right about the difference between “style” and “fashion,” Tech. Fashion is fleeting - good style never goes out of…well, style. I tend to buy classic-styled, American cut clothes (not too tight, single vent in the suit, single pleat, cuffed trousers) because I know that’s what I can pull off. In my mind, that’s what the trick is - finding a style that works for you and sticking with it. If you’ve got the ability and opportunity to go cutting edge then do it, but if you’re 30 lbs overweight, haven’t had a hair cut or a shave in too long, and walk around with a slouch in your shoulders the best tailor-made suit is going to look like a rag when you put it on. For God’s sake man, take a little pride in yourself - look in the damn mirror once in awhile. Sorry for the rant, I feel much better. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/15 "2001-03-27T15:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > **You’re wearing a tuxedo. Maybe a white dinner jacket. How do people know you’re not the waiter?** See the incredibly cool G.K. Chesterton short story, “The Queer Feet,” in which one learns why the members of the Society of the Twelve True Fishermen wear green evening clothes…“to avoid being mistaken for a waiter.” ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/16 "2001-03-27T16:57:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by plnnr \* > \*\*You’re right about the difference between “style” and “fashion,” Tech. Fashion is fleeting - good style never goes out of…well, style. \ > > For God’s sake man, take a little pride in yourself - look in the damn mirror once in awhile. > > Sorry for the rant, I feel much better. \*\* **plnnr** , you are dead-on. In my book, there’s nothing wrong with fashion; it certainly has its place. But style is something that’s cultivated. True style extends beyond one’s apparel. There seems to be some sort of backlash about keeping up one’s appearance these days. There’s a fine line between being comfortable in one’s self and accepting ‘how you look’ and letting one’s self go. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/17 "2001-03-27T17:14:56Z")
I have heard the story that the Tuxedo takes its name from Tuxedo, NY. There, at a party, some folks cut the tails off of their long coats (?) to make the tailless tuxedo we know today. I believe this was so they could slide down the curved bannister. Any truth to this? Or just some local retcon? I used to have a tux that I bought at a yard sale for $15 that I used while hiking. Nothing like crossing the summit of remote peak dressed for dinner. Style never goes out of style. ---
**Author:** ![sliv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@sliv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sliv)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/18 "2001-03-27T19:09:27Z")
Purchasable now is a suit that in all respects is a tuxedo, except that it has notched lapels instead of either peaked or shawl. Not only do I own one of these sartorial non-sequitors, but I actually wear it out in public. I further break the rules by wearing shoes with a monkstrap and cap toe! I feel positively transgressive. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a shoe with a cap toe, monkstrap, and leather soles? Can’t be done. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/19 "2001-03-27T19:21:45Z")
For further sartorial enlightenment, visit [Esquire.com](http://Esquire.com) and browse around. Some of the stuff is a bit glib, but it’ll point you in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Tequila\_Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568/20 "2001-03-27T19:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > A tuxedo is distinguished from a suit by its satin lapels and satin stripe on the leg of the slacks. Your grey tux is certainly a tux, but traditionalists will say the only proper color for a tuxedo is black or white. Enjoy your tuxedo, but recognize if you are attending a very conservative, proper affair that black is much preferred. This was from an email to EMenswear. A couple of swatches and satin and Voila`…any suit apparently can be transformed into a tux. At least according to this. Myself, …I like plnnr’s descrition much better. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-a-tux-a-tux/59568.md?page=2)