# What Makes An Italian Sub Authentic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 4, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682 "2019-09-04T14:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/1 "2019-09-04T14:09:04Z")
In a nostalgia group on FB, someone talked about their favorite Italian restaurant and how it made the “most authentic” Italian subs. As a southern WASP, I have no idea what makes an Italian sub authentic. Can someone explain it to me? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/2 "2019-09-04T14:15:09Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > In a nostalgia group on FB, someone talked about their favorite Italian restaurant and how it made the “most authentic” Italian subs. > > As a southern WASP, I have no idea what makes an Italian sub authentic. Can someone explain it to me? “someone told me once it was authentic and I believed them.” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/3 "2019-09-04T14:31:05Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > “someone told me once it was authentic and I believed them.” “All the lunch meats ended in vowels!” ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/4 "2019-09-04T14:41:35Z")
jokes aside, I’m pretty certain that any “Italian sub” or “Italian sandwich” you’ll find here is an American invention, so don’t really know how you’d determine authenticity. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/5 "2019-09-04T14:47:39Z")
At the risk of sounding like Maggie Smith, what is a sub? I rather suspect it’s not something many Italians would be familiar with. Or should one read the OP’s question as “What makes an Italian sub-authentic”? Which would bring into play all the stereotypes about parking, gesticulating and mamma-fixation. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/6 "2019-09-04T14:53:11Z")
**Patricklondon** , I refer to a submarine sandwich. Also known as a grinder, hoagie, hero, and other local terms. A long loaf of Italian bread with various meats, vegetables, and other fillings. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/7 "2019-09-04T15:05:57Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > jokes aside, I’m pretty certain that any “Italian sub” or “Italian sandwich” you’ll find here is an American invention, so don’t really know how you’d determine authenticity. According to Wiki, the “Italian sandwich” was invented by an [Italian-American in Maine in 1903.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_sandwich) But I think you can go with the type of hero made in a typical New York Italian deli. The basic ingredients would include: -Long, crusty, “Italian bread” roll (like a baguette) -A variety of thinly sliced cold cuts, including Genoa salami, ham, capicola (Tony Soprano’s “gabbagool”), maybe pepperoni, mortadella -Provolone cheese (although the Maine version apparently uses American cheese) -Lettuce, tomato, onion -Dressing of olive oil, red wine vinegar, and maybe some oregano Optional: roasted red peppers, sliced green peppers, sour pickle slices It wouldn’t have uncured meats like roast beef or turkey, bacon, mayonnaise, Swiss cheese, or many other ingredients found in other kinds of subs. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/8 "2019-09-04T15:13:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > According to Wiki, the “Italian sandwich” was invented by an [Italian-American in Maine in 1903.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_sandwich) But I think you can go with the type of hero made in a typical New York Italian deli. > > The basic ingredients would include: > -Long, crusty, “Italian bread” road (like a baguette) > -A variety of thinly sliced cold cuts, including Genoa salami, ham, capicola (Tony Soprano’s “gabbagool”), maybe pepperoni, mortadella > -Provolone cheese (although the Maine version apparently uses American cheese) > -Lettuce, tomato, onion > -Dressing of olive oil, red wine vinegar, and maybe some oregano > > Optional: roasted red peppers, sliced green peppers, sour pickle slices > > It wouldn’t have uncured meats like roast beef or turkey, bacon, mayonnaise, Swiss cheese, or many other ingredients found in other kinds of subs. Here on Long Island, “a hero” generally refers to a 3-foot version and will come in either Italian or American flavors. The Italian basically fits Colibri’s description - I’d be surprised not to get salami and ham, and usually either pepperoni or cappicola. Mortadella would be more unusual. The cheese is always provolone, there’s always lettuce, tomato, and onion, and a red wine vinegar dressing is served on the side. Peppers and pickles would be unusual here. The alternative, the American, generally contains turkey, ham, and roast beef with American cheese, LTO, and mayo. There are no other heros to speak of. Any other hero would be referred to by ingredients or a nickname - you might get The Lumberjack, which is hero-shaped and contains a fried chicken cutlet with American cheese and Russian dressing, but served on a garlic hero, but you wouldn’t say “I’m having a hero for lunch.” However, the following conversation is entirely comprehensible: “We’re having a hero at the meeting.” “Oh, what kind?” “Half and half.” It is then understood that your group has three feet of Italian and three feet of American sliced into around three-inch pieces, and some lucky or indecisive soul will get the overlap piece. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/9 "2019-09-04T15:13:51Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > At the risk of sounding like Maggie Smith, what is a sub? I rather suspect it’s not something many Italians would be familiar with. A “sub,” from submarine sandwich from its elongated shape, is a generic term for a sandwich made on a long roll and the origin of the name of the “Subway” sandwich shops. I’m surprised you haven’t heard of them, since Subway has stores in the UK. There are many regional variations on the name: hero (since it takes a hero to eat one) in New York, grinder in Boston, hoagie in Philadelphia, po’boy (poor boy) in New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/10 "2019-09-04T15:29:56Z")
The sandwiches they have on the streets in Italy aren’t submarine style sandwiches, but more of a panini type thing. The ones I saw were generally cheese and cured meats, and without the typical American style lettuce, tomato and onions. So it’s kind of like most Italian-American foods- there’s what they eat over there, and what the Italians who immigrated made with local ingredients. Neither is more or less authentic when you think about it - Italians made both, just in different places where things varied in availability and cost. Same for Mexicans in the SW US versus the interior of Mexico. Nobody’s going to claim that fajitas aren’t actually Mexican, just because Mexicans in Texas were the originator of that dish. Similarly, an “authentic” Italian sandwich probably depends on where it was originally made- is a muffaletta any less authentic than a grinder, hoagie, hero or sub? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/11 "2019-09-04T15:48:48Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > how it made the “most authentic” Italian subs. For some reason I’m reminded of Linus Van Pelt’s quest for the “most sincere” pumpkin patch. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/12 "2019-09-04T16:25:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > A “sub,” from submarine sandwich from its elongated shape, is a generic term for a sandwich made on a long roll and the origin of the name of the “Subway” sandwich shops. I’m surprised you haven’t heard of them, since Subway has stores in the UK. There are many regional variations on the name: hero (since it takes a hero to eat one) in New York, grinder in Boston, hoagie in Philadelphia, po’boy (poor boy) in New Orleans. It’s a “sub” in Boston. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/13 "2019-09-04T17:20:04Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > It’s a “sub” in Boston. Yeah, “grinder” is a south Connecticut thing. Hot; cold; meatball; eggplant parmigiana; ham, salami, & cheese with oil & vinegar…in New Haven, they were all “grinders.” I think they become “subs” when you pass from the Yankee Zone into the Red Sox Zone. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/14 "2019-09-04T18:00:52Z")
I wondered where the idea of putting vinaigrette on a sub came from. I don’t recall ever seeing it before 2000. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/15 "2019-09-04T18:07:45Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > A “sub,” from submarine sandwich from its elongated shape, is a generic term for a sandwich made on a long roll and the origin of the name of the “Subway” sandwich shops. I’m surprised you haven’t heard of them, since Subway has stores in the UK. There are many regional variations on the name: hero (since it takes a hero to eat one) in New York, grinder in Boston, hoagie in Philadelphia, po’boy (poor boy) in New Orleans. We have Subway in the UK but never gave it a thought that it refered to the sandwich itself, I just thought it was a name for a shop that attached itself to that type of sandwich, you are saying it is the other way round? None of those other names have much UK recognition either I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/16 "2019-09-04T18:16:17Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > I think they become “subs” when you pass from the Yankee Zone into the Red Sox Zone. It would be interesting to map out. I’ve seen “grinder” as far north and west as Alburg, VT. Even more curious about “spuckie” from **Colibri** ’s link, which I’ve never heard before. Also: Re: Italy: Don’t think of it as one country with a uniform language and cuisine. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/17 "2019-09-04T18:20:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > We have Subway in the UK but never gave it a thought that it refered to the sandwich itself, I just thought it was a name for a shop that attached itself to that type of sandwich, you are saying it is the other way round? > > None of those other names have much UK recognition either I don’t think. you had it correct, the name is just attached to the style of sandwich, there’s no sandwich I’m aware of called a “subway.” it’s just a play on words, they sell sub sandwiches and most people are familiar with the word “subway” in the rail sense. but names for this style vary by region: > **[Submarine sandwich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_sandwich)** > > A submarine sandwich, commonly known as a sub, hoagie (Philadelphia metropolitan area and Western Pennsylvania English), hero (New York City English), Italian \[note 1\] (Maine English), grinder (New England English), wedge (Westchester, NY), or a spuckie (Boston English), is a type of American cold or hot sandwich made from a cylindrical bread roll split lengthwise and filled with meats, cheeses, vegetables, and condiments. > The terms submarine and sub are widespread in the US and not assignable... it’s not always consistent either; as chains branch out to other regions they sometimes bring the name with them. In Detroit, if I go to Tubby’s, Subway, or Bommarito’s, I’m getting a sub or submarine sandwich. If I go to Bellacino’s, I’m getting a grinder. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/18 "2019-09-04T18:22:17Z")
The first thing I thought of when I read the title to this thread was “Pasta in the ballast tanks?” :dubious: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/19 "2019-09-04T18:27:47Z")
> [@eunoia](#): > > Even more curious about “spuckie” from **Colibri** ’s link, which I’ve never heard before. Yeah, I never heard of spuckies until playing Fallout 4 (mostly set in what used to be Boston), and a chain called Joe’s Spuckies is a couple minor locations. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/20 "2019-09-04T18:30:19Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > We have Subway in the UK but never gave it a thought that it refered to the sandwich itself, I just thought it was a name for a shop that attached itself to that type of sandwich, you are saying it is the other way round? “Subway” is a pun, indicating a shop that specializes in selling subs. I take it you don’t dine there often, since [they do refer to their sandwiches as subs in the UK.](https://www.subway.com/en-GB) [Blimpie](https://www.blimpie.com/) is another sub shop that has stores in the UK. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682.md?page=2)