# What Makes An Italian Sub Authentic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 4, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682 "2019-09-04T14:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/41 "2019-09-04T20:56:54Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I would claim that fajitas are not Mexican food. (They are usually encountered in a Tex-Mex restaurant, not Azteca.) Nor is a New York-style pizza an Italian pizza. Not that it is impossible to serve authentic cuisine in a foreign country, but if most Italians cannot recognize your panino then it is stretching things to call it an “Italian sandwich”. I am all for creativity in food, however. Whether you agree or not, the name of the sandwich, which was invented by Italian immigrants and made from mostly Italian cured meats and Italian cheese, is “Italian sub.” If you want to nitpick I suppose you could call it an “Italian-American sub,” but no one does. If fajitas were developed by Mexicans in Texas, it’s still a kind of Mexican food regardless of whether it was invented in Mexico. Corned beef and cabbage is more an invention of Irish-Americans than something typical of Ireland itself, but it’s still Irish food. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/42 "2019-09-04T21:01:29Z")
An Italian Hero (Sub, Grinder, whatever), is just a term for pseudo Italian-like meats and some cheese on that classic hero bun. As such there is really no authentic Italian hero, as it is all just smoke and mirrors from the start. It’s sort of the junk food of the cold cut sandwiches. Now go to europe and have a Italian sandwich and now we’re talking. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/43 "2019-09-04T21:01:55Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I would call it a “Neopolitan-American pizza” if it’s not the traditional food. (It’s not a _geographical_ thing, but there are actual guidelines for the ingredients or techniques you may use, otherwise the “specialità tradizionale garantita” people start getting on your ass.) > > Anyway, it’s not a bright line. I’m just suggesting that it may be possible to push things far enough so that any Italian will say, “That was good, but it was not an Italian sandwich/pizza.” Anecdotally, I have heard with my own ears an Italian apologize that she couldn’t make a bruschetta quite right because she couldn’t find the proper flour outside Italy… And I’d be willing to be that Ligurians and Pugliese probably argue about what the “proper” way to make some dishes is, while the Sudtirolers probably think they’re both wrong. Pizza, for example comes in multiple styles in Italy alone, some of which are less similar to Neapolitan pizza than NYC pizza is. ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/44 "2019-09-04T21:17:30Z")
I thought it was spelled gyro, not hero. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/45 "2019-09-04T21:27:53Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > I thought it was spelled gyro, not hero. A hero\* sandwich is another (regional) name for a sub. On the other hand, I believe the correct pronunciation of “gyro” in Greek is “hero.” \*Hero in the sense of, say, Superman. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/46 "2019-09-04T21:39:05Z")
IIRC it’s more like “year-oh” ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/47 "2019-09-04T22:45:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > According to Wiki, the “Italian sandwich” was invented by an [Italian-American in Maine in 1903.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_sandwich) But I think you can go with the type of hero made in a typical New York Italian deli. > > The basic ingredients would include: > -Long, crusty, “Italian bread” roll (like a **baguette** ) …otherwise known as “[Pane Francese](https://www.confortatemiconlemele.it/pane-francese-baguette/)”… “Authentic” is often hard to justify for modern foodstuffs in any case. “Authentic pizza” has tomatoes on it after all. Basically we’re all food whores. And all the better for it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/48 "2019-09-04T23:04:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **DPRK** : > > I would claim that fajitas are not Mexican food. (They are usually encountered in a Tex-Mex restaurant, not Azteca.) How is food from one region of Mexico any less “Mexican” than food from another region of Mexico? Saying that something is Tex-Mex, not Mexican, is like saying that something is Neapolitan, not Italian. Back to the OP, I expect that the person referring to “authenticity” already has in mind some type standard of a “proper Italian sub” (probably the variety produced in the shop of the person’s preference from that person’s hometown), and they’re saying that a particular place is very close to that standard. And the various long-bun sandwiches are not quite the same thing. A sub, for instance, can have the bread fully sliced (and thus have a top slice and a bottom slice), while in a hoagie, the bread is always sliced only partially, like a hot dog bun, with the fillings in between and atop. Subway used to use a V-shaped slice resulting in a large bottom slice with a trough in it, topped by a small top slice, but now uses a hoagie cut. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/49 "2019-09-04T23:18:37Z")
By some standards then, a hoagie isn’t even a _sandwich_. I refer you to the on-going debate over at [The Takeout](https://thetakeout.com/c/is-a-hot-dog-a-sandwich). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/50 "2019-09-04T23:32:47Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > IIRC it’s more like “year-oh” That’s how we were taught here in Chicago. And there’s an “s” at the end. It’s like “kudos.” Has an “s,” but is singular. There was some sort of poster, I dunno if it was Kronos or Olympia or somebody else, at hot dog stands here that implored us to pronounce it “YEE-ros.” But I’ve also heard that initial consonant can differ depending on the Greek dialect. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/51 "2019-09-04T23:32:53Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > IIRC it’s more like “year-oh” I’ll ask Mr Tsifliklis, my landlord. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/52 "2019-09-05T00:05:56Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > Here on Long Island, “a hero” generally refers to a 3-foot version and will come in either Italian or American flavors. > > The Italian basically fits Colibri’s description - I’d be surprised not to get salami and ham, and usually either pepperoni or cappicola. Mortadella would be more unusual. The cheese is always provolone, there’s always lettuce, tomato, and onion, and a red wine vinegar dressing is served on the side. Peppers and pickles would be unusual here. > > The alternative, the American, generally contains turkey, ham, and roast beef with American cheese, LTO, and mayo. Is some type of mustard acceptable on any one of those? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/53 "2019-09-05T00:19:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How is food from one region of Mexico any less “Mexican” than food from another region of Mexico? Saying that something is Tex-Mex, not Mexican, is like saying that something is Neapolitan, not Italian. There are people like [this guy](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/dining/texas-mexican-food.html) who claim that Tex-Mex cuisine is not the same as “real” Texas Mexican food: > [@](#): > > Texas Mexican is the indigenous cooking of South Texas, according to Mr. Medrano, 71, whose second cookbook, “Don’t Count the Tortillas: The Art of Texas Mexican Cooking,” will be published in June by Texas Tech University Press. It’s the food that’s been made by families like his on this land since before the Rio Grande marked a border, when Texas was a part of Mexico, and long before then. > > Don’t get him wrong: Tex-Mex is a cuisine that should be respected and celebrated, he said. It’s just that Tex-Mex standards like queso and combo fajitas piled high with chicken and shrimp don’t speak of home to those whose Texas roots go back some 12,000 years. > > “That’s not our food,” said Mr. Medrano, who has spent the better part of a decade defining his cuisine, inspiring a growing number of Texas Mexicans in the process. “We don’t eat like that.” > > […] > > That began in the early 1900s, when local Mexican-American home cooking was first adapted in restaurants run “by Anglos for Anglos,” Mr. Medrano said. In the 1970s, writers started referring to that hybridized cuisine as Tex-Mex: refried beans as smooth as pancake batter; chili made with powdered spices and stock, instead of the carne con chiles based on whole dried red chiles; fajitas with anything other than the skirt steak that gave the dish its name; and extra cheese on everything. (NB it appears he does, in particular, distinguish “real” Texan-Mexican fajitas from Tex-Mex fajitas!) Me, well, when it comes to these types of culinary holy wars I prefer to shut up and enjoy my dinner. I like Roman pizzas too. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/54 "2019-09-05T00:26:35Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Is some type of mustard acceptable on any one of those? An “authentic” 😉 Italian hero would not typically be garnished with mustard (or mayonnaise). But I’m sure some people use it. I suppose that mustard might be a bit more common with an “American” sub, but I don’t use it and I don’t recall anyone asking for it when it’s been served at parties. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/55 "2019-09-05T00:28:07Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s how we were taught here in Chicago. And there’s an “s” at the end. It’s like “kudos.” Has an “s,” but is singular. There was some sort of poster, I dunno if it was Kronos or Olympia or somebody else, at hot dog stands here that implored us to pronounce it “YEE-ros.” But I’ve also heard that initial consonant can differ depending on the Greek dialect. there’s a coney chain 'round Metro Detroit (Kerby’s) who just gave up and spells it “yeros” on their menu. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/56 "2019-09-05T01:00:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I eat there quite a lot but as I say above, I thought that “sub” was their equivalent of MacDonalds sticking “Mac” in front of anything and everything. Except that they don’t. It’s Mc, not Mac. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/57 "2019-09-05T01:04:12Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Is some type of mustard acceptable on any one of those? Certainly not, although the mustard packets that come standard with it are over there if you insist. (Generally more likely to see mustard put on the American.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/58 "2019-09-05T01:19:44Z")
[quote=“Colibri, post:7, topic:839682”] According to Wiki, the “Italian sandwich” was invented by an [Italian-American in Maine in 1903.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_sandwich) But I think you can go with the type of hero made in a typical New York Italian deli. The basic ingredients would include: -Long, crusty, “Italian bread” roll (like a baguette) -A variety of thinly sliced cold cuts, including Genoa salami, ham, capicola (Tony Soprano’s “gabbagool”), maybe pepperoni, mortadella -Provolone cheese (although the Maine version apparently uses American cheese) -Lettuce, tomato, onion -Dressing of olive oil, red wine vinegar, and maybe some oregano/QUOTE] Yep, that’s my understanding of it and what I expect when I order. [Here, for example](https://www.thepauperedchef.com/article/the-best-italian-sub-in-chicago-a-tour-of-six-delis), is what an Italian sub is in Chicago: > [@](#): > > In its authentic Chicago rendition, the Italian sub is about 9 inches long and filled with dry-cured Italian meats like salami, capicola, soppresetta, or proscuitto; mortadella is often added to contribute a bologna-like creaminess. It’s topped with provolone to help give it some salty bite; a little oil and vinegar for some tang; and giardiniera , that Italian pickled vegetable concoction that’s found it’s true home here, for a nice kick. It’s blessedly simple and straightforward, a shockingly cheap workman’s lunch wrapped in paper and slid across the counter to take on the road. So, basically, Italian cold cuts and cheese in a hoagie/sub roll, which can be a crusty or soft roll here. (Sometimes fresh mozzarella instead of provolone, but that’s usually when it’s paired with a prosciutto and nothing else.) As much as I like Chicago’s take on Italian(-American) subs, I prefer the versions I’ve had on the East Coast (Philly, NYC, and NJ). ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/59 "2019-09-05T02:03:36Z")
I have had heroes in NYC that approximatel N’Awins Po’boys. You have to specify: Ham or roast beef heated up with slightly melted cheese, topped with tomato, onion, and dill pickles, liberally dressed with mustard and mayonnaise. People look at you weird, but you tell them they’ve made a Po’boy, and they smile. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/60 "2019-09-05T02:13:03Z")
**pulykammel @58:**. I’ve had Italian subs from Taylor Street in Chicago which have been acceptable, but nothing like the Italian heroes in Brooklyn or on Mulberry Street in Manhattan. Why get one in Chicago when you could have an Italian Beef at Al’s, or a Chi Dog dragged through the garden? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682.md?page=4)