# What Makes An Italian Sub Authentic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 4, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682 "2019-09-04T14:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/61 "2019-09-05T02:24:23Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > **pulykammel @58:**. I’ve had Italian subs from Taylor Street in Chicago which have been acceptable, but nothing like the Italian heroes in Brooklyn or on Mulberry Street in Manhattan. > > Why get one in Chicago when you could have an Italian Beef at Al’s, or a Chi Dog dragged through the garden? I do love the subs at Bari’s, as well as a number of other places, but there’s something about the ones I’ve had on the East Coast that are just a bit better to my tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/62 "2019-09-05T02:32:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > An “authentic” 😉 Italian hero would not typically be garnished with mustard (or mayonnaise). But I’m sure some people use it. > > I suppose that mustard might be a bit more common with an “American” sub, but I don’t use it and I don’t recall anyone asking for it when it’s been served at parties. Henry Hill (of Goodfellas fame) says in his cookbook that the Italian heros he grew up eating in Brooklyn in the '40s and '50s came with yellow mustard, and didn’t include vinegar or olive oil (though he does include sliced olives in his recipe.) I guess the contents of an Italian sandwich depend on which Italian you’re asking. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/63 "2019-09-05T02:54:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s how we were taught here in Chicago. And there’s an “s” at the end. It’s like “kudos.” Has an “s,” but is singular. There was some sort of poster, I dunno if it was Kronos or Olympia or somebody else, at hot dog stands here that implored us to pronounce it “YEE-ros.” But I’ve also heard that initial consonant can differ depending on the Greek dialect. My experience is Yee-ro but without the S at the end unless you are ordering more than one. YEE-ro is the usual but I’m sure I’ve heard Year-Ro a few times. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it as Hero but unfortunately I’ve heard it many times a Gyro as in Gyroscope. I remember going to a place in Greek Town in Chicago many years ago (complete with an autographed picture of Telly Savalas on the wall) that had a sign that said “It is pronounced YEE-ro.” (may or may not have had an S on the end). I also found out that you need to specify a “sandwich” or a “platter.” The latter may or may not come with Pita but it will be way to big to pick up and eat. There is a great place very close to me that has been locally owned since the early 80’s by a Greek family so I guess I have a good reason to go there and ask if I am pronouncing it right. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/64 "2019-09-05T03:09:53Z")
Ham (could be one of several varieties), Salami, Provolone Cheese, Lettuce, Tomato, Onion, Oil and Vinegar and Oregano. That is the classic Italian Sub. When I was a kid they used to call them Number 1s because they were always the first on the list of sandwiches when you order by number. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/65 "2019-09-05T03:19:29Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Ham (could be one of several varieties), Salami, Provolone Cheese, Lettuce, Tomato, Onion, Oil and Vinegar and Oregano. That is the classic Italian Sub. When I was a kid they used to call them Number 1s because they were always the first on the list of sandwiches when you order by number. #9 at Jimmy John’s… #13 at Jersey Mike’s How bad is it that I didn’t have to look that up. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/66 "2019-09-05T13:36:48Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > The first thing I thought of when I read the title to this thread was “Pasta in the ballast tanks?” :dubious: :smack: The image the thread title conjured up for me was strings of garlic hanging from the periscope. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/67 "2019-09-05T13:52:43Z")
I love sandwiches. I like a lot of submarine-type sandwiches. What I don’t get about Italian subs is the stacking of multiple kinds of meat. Each kind of meat has a distinctive flavor, but if you cram them together, you don’t experience them. It just becomes a big ball of pork products, especially because some of the meats have subtle flavors that are overwhelmed by the more strongly spiced ones. So your delicious, specifically produced meat just becomes meat filler for stronger flavors. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/68 "2019-09-05T14:04:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Henry Hill (of Goodfellas fame) says in his cookbook that the Italian heros he grew up eating in Brooklyn in the '40s and '50s came with yellow mustard, and didn’t include vinegar or olive oil (though he does include sliced olives in his recipe.) > > I guess the contents of an Italian sandwich depend on which Italian you’re asking. Yeah, but Hill was only half-Italian (his father was Irish, which is why he could never be a made man), so what does he know?😉 That is interesting, though, if the standard Italian sandwich was different in Brooklyn. My experience is growing up in an Italian-Irish section of the Bronx in the 1950s-1960s, where you would put mustard on a ham and Swiss but not on anything spicier. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/69 "2019-09-05T14:43:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > There are people like [this guy](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/dining/texas-mexican-food.html) who claim that Tex-Mex cuisine is not the same as “real” Texas Mexican food: > > (NB it appears he does, in particular, distinguish “real” Texan-Mexican fajitas from Tex-Mex fajitas!) Medrano seems to be splitting hairs; there’s a restaurant Tex-Mex style, but it derived from Texas Mexican, and overlaps a lot as well. A lot of it depends on exactly when the people immigrated to Texas. Chili’s a good example- he’s drawing his line at the use of chili powder vs. dried chiles reconstituted into a paste. Either way, the dish is a Mexican Texan original- it derived from a stew cooked by Canary Islands settlers in San Antonio in the late 18th/early 19th century, and eventually grew to more widespread popularity in the late 19th century. Not long after that, people came up with chili powder and the recipes became a little bit anglicized. Same thing with fajitas- people started cooking chicken and shrimp along with the beef. But none of them aren’t Mexican, Texas or otherwise they’re just a newer version of the original dishes that originated in Mexican communities in Texas. There’s not a clear line, even within a dish, whether it’s Tex-Mex or Texas Mexican I guess the best description is in the article- the border moved, but the people didn’t. By that logic, the food they made and their descendants made is still Mexican, even if it’s Texas Mexican or Tex-Mex or whatever you want to call it. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/70 "2019-09-05T15:22:40Z")
Back when I lived in upstate NY, we got Italian Subs from a Mom & Pop deli/grocery store Not sure of the lettuce type, but it was long and stringy (Spaghetti shaped, not leafy). ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/71 "2019-09-05T16:43:53Z")
> [@eunoia](#): > > It would be interesting to map out. I’ve seen “grinder” as far north and west as Alburg, VT. Even more curious about “spuckie” from **Colibri** ’s link, which I’ve never heard before. > > Also: Re: Italy: Don’t think of it as one country with a uniform language and cuisine. I love my northern NE states, and been up there a lot, but whatever they call a sandwich there is probably just a notion from reading a big city magazine. Larger cities with a history of Italians migrating to them are where the names get assigned. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/72 "2019-09-05T18:59:04Z")
> [@eunoia](#): > > It would be interesting to map out. I’ve seen “grinder” as far north and west as Alburg, VT. Even more curious about “spuckie” from **Colibri** ’s link, which I’ve never heard before. We occasionally use “grinder” out here in Chicago, but, from my experience with it, it tends to be a baked sub. There’s, for example, the Chicago Pizza and Oven Grinder Company (most famous for its pot-pie style pizza); D’Agastino’s (a Wrigleyville pizza institution) also sells oven grinders on its menu; in my general neighborhood, there’s Piezanos Pizza and Grinder Company (not to be confused with Pizano’s) – also an oven baked sub; I don’t think there is a place that does a cold sub and calls it a “grinder” here in Chicago, though. I’ve only encountered “grinders” as hot submarine sandwiches in my area. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/73 "2019-09-05T19:52:01Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > Back when I lived in upstate NY, we got Italian Subs from a Mom & Pop deli/grocery store > > Not sure of the lettuce type, but it was long and stringy (Spaghetti shaped, not leafy). It was normal iceberg lettuce just shredded. Yeah shredded lettuce is also a staple of an Italian Sub. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/74 "2019-09-05T21:13:11Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I wondered where the idea of putting vinaigrette on a sub came from. I don’t recall ever seeing it before 2000. Oil and vinegar has been standard on Italian hoagies for as long as I can remember (mid 1960s) and I am certain much earlier than that. My grandmother had a hoagie shop for a while (in the 50s, I think) and was always very particular about the correct assembly and seasoning of a hoagie. And may I present the ultimate Italian hoagie: [the Primo Hoagies sharp Italian -](https://www.primohoagies.com/primo-menu.php) prosciutto, sharp provolone, capicola and genoa salami. I assume I don’t need to add that the correct bread is a necessity for a proper hoagie (as well as for a proper cheesesteak) - I’m looking at you, Subway, with the mushy abomination you call “bread”… ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/75 "2019-09-05T21:14:33Z")
Note, I would describe a Greek gyros or hero (at least a couple that I had in Athens) as more like a döner kebab than anything resembling a submarine sandwich (Italian or otherwise). You can get it in a pita, and with onions, tomatoes, and lettuce if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/76 "2019-09-05T21:54:02Z")
“Hero” for a sub-like sandwich is completely unrelated to “gyros” for lamb-and-beef on a pita. The similarity in pronunciations is purely coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/77 "2019-09-05T22:42:13Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Note, I would describe a Greek gyros or hero (at least a couple that I had in Athens) as more like a döner kebab than anything resembling a submarine sandwich (Italian or otherwise). You can get it in a pita, and with onions, tomatoes, and lettuce if you want. OT, but is there any real difference between doner, gyro, and souvlaki? Or is it just Turkish, Greek, and Lebanese (respectively) terminology? I get souvlaki here, gyro in Chicago, and doner in Europe. They’re all delicious. (Doner is served on a soft roll. In America it all comes in pita. In NY, I have to ask for onions to be added.) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/78 "2019-09-05T23:20:03Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > OT, but is there any real difference between doner, gyro, and souvlaki? Or is it just Turkish, Greek, and Lebanese (respectively) terminology? In my experience, doner is basically meatballs, gyro is slices off a gyro loaf (usually beef mixed with lamb), and souvlaki is chunks of marinated meat (not ground). A schwarma has slices of meat off a loaf interlayered with fat, but the meat is not ground. The two types I’ve encountered most often are veal and chicken. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/79 "2019-09-05T23:33:50Z")
I have had it in several different countries, but was not really paying attention to the fine differences, just wanted some street food 🙂 The main feature of the doner/gyros/shawarma is basically the vertically skewered meat cone which rotates and is shaved. It is definitely roasted, so no prosciutto or anything like that. Lamb is pretty typical, though you can usually substitute beef, chicken, turkey, pork, or whatever the place has. Spices will also vary. As for regional variations, the type of bread (assuming you get it on bread) is one obvious difference. It could be a pita, or Turkish flatbread, or Turkish non-flat bread, or the roll you mention. Then come the vegetables and sauce. In my experience they ask you before adding them; if you say you want it with everything then you get your onions, lettuce, and tomatoes. Chips are not unheard of, nor cucumbers, various pickles, etc. Greek sauce is yogurt-based, but there are other types of white sauce, blended mayo/ketchup, and hot sauce, tomato sauce, butter, and other possibilities (tahini, mango chutney, you name it). As with the Italian sandwiches, I am sure there will be a big argument over which type of “Greek sandwich” (or Turkish sandwich, really) is most authentic. But I think- correct me if I’m wrong- despite the serving and even ingredient variations, gyros/doner/shawarma refers to the same type of rotisserie, just in different languages. Souvlaki or shish kebab is different, because the meat is not prepared like that. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682/80 "2019-09-06T00:04:02Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > In my experience, doner is basically meatballs. Hmm…my experience is different. For me, doner is also usually cut off a cone, but typically more Turkish and Middle Eastern spiced than Greek. (Google image searching “doner” shows nothing but sliced meats off a spit for me, too.) Meatballs is kofte kebab (or any of a zillion variant spellings.) And souvlaki is what we think of as shish kebabs here in the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-an-italian-sub-authentic/839682.md?page=5)