# What makes "Chinaman" an insulting term? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 12, 2009, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145 "2009-05-12T07:20:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![nivlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3bc359/32.png) [@nivlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nivlac)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/81 "2009-05-15T01:51:29Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What about referring to someone of Asian descent as “Oriental”? That seems to have gone out of vogue and become derogatory. Oriental rugs, yes. Oriental person, no. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/82 "2009-05-15T03:19:04Z")
> [@nivlac](#): > > Oriental rugs, yes. Oriental person, no. Sooo…Chinese rugs, yes, Chinaman, no? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/83 "2009-05-15T03:23:02Z")
My grandpa still says “oriental.” I don’t see how on earth “oriental” is demeaning, other than that people SAY that it’s demeaning. It’s a simple descriptive term and it’s better than “Asian” because it’s more specific. “Asian” could mean anyone from India to Japan to Israel. I also think it sounds very dignified and not demeaning at all. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/84 "2009-05-15T03:51:24Z")
Here’s something I thought was interesting. > [@](#): > > "RECENTLY I was looking through a child’s illustrated alphabet, published this year. It is what is called a ‘travel alphabet.’ > > ``` > J for the Junk which the Chinaman finds Is useful for carrying goods of all kinds. > > ``` > > The detail of the picture is very small, but the ‘Chinamen’ portrayed in it appear to be wearing pigtails. Is it really necessary to teach children to use expressions like ‘Chinaman’? The word has been regarded as offensive by the Chinese for at least a dozen years. If a Chinese wants to be called a Chinese and not a Chinaman, it is only the most ordinary politeness to do what is asked of one." That was written by George Orwell in 1947. (Edited for brevity. Complete passage [here](http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/asiplease1947-01.htm#Feb27).) ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/85 "2009-05-15T04:24:26Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > My grandpa still says “oriental.” I don’t see how on earth “oriental” is demeaning, other than that people SAY that it’s demeaning. It’s a simple descriptive term and it’s better than “Asian” because it’s more specific. “Asian” could mean anyone from India to Japan to Israel. I also think it sounds very dignified and not demeaning at all. It’s antiquated-- as you said, your grandpa says it. I wouldn’t say it’s demeaning, but dignified is far down my list of things to call it. “Oriental” evokes images of a time where Asians were still mostly in Asia and therefore were a rare sight and truly exotic. And like the term “exotic”, its usage really reveals more about the person who says it rather than the person it’s describing. I expect a white or black person who has lived his entire life in his completely white or black town and never been face-to-face with a person of any other color to use the term. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/86 "2009-05-15T07:41:31Z")
What about _Chinerman_, I’ve actually heard folks use that in these times within their dialect, and I don’t think they’re prejudice. I believe they are just within their language. Pure language, the way we talk to each other. His terminology wasn’t wrong, it was just outside of the my dialect and meant something else to him, much more innocent than a preconception- standard language is such an oxymoron. Sometimes I think racial tolerence is only a language away, it behooves us to understand our own language deeply, and other’s language even deeper. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/87 "2009-05-15T12:21:20Z")
Here you go: 2 examples of “Chinaman” from short story The Gate of 100 Sorrows from Indian Tales. Good examples of how Chinaman is used with a negative connotation. No; the old man knew his business thoroughly, and he was most clean for a Chinaman. He was a one-eyed little chap, not much more than five feet high, and both his middle fingers were gone. All the same, he was the handiest man at rolling black pills I have ever seen. Never seemed to be touched by the Smoke, either; and what he took day and night, night and day, was a caution. I’ve been at it five years, and I can do my fair share of the Smoke with any one; but I was a child to Fung-Tching that way. Fung-Tching never told us why he called the place “The Gate of the Hundred Sorrows.” (He was the only Chinaman I know who used bad-sounding fancy names. Most of them are flowery. As you’ll see in Calcutta.) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/88 "2009-05-15T13:28:37Z")
Those don’t sound like bad connotations to me. Well, “most clean for a Chinaman” is a bit backhanded, but would sound equally bad as “most clean for a Chinese person.” Has nobody noticed that the construction “Englishman” or “Frenchman” on the one hand and “Chinaman” on the other is fundamentally different? The proper analogy would be “England-man” or “France-man”. If I said “hey, you England-man” or “hey you France woman” it would sound odd and a bit aggressive, don’t you think? “Hey you Ireland man, why don’t ya piss off back to Ireland?” Like Ireland is some exotic place and you belong _there_ and sure as fuck don’t belong _here_. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/89 "2009-05-15T13:42:22Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Slurs don’t have to be obviously insulting or even make sense. For example, the Russians use the term [khokhol](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khokhol) demeaningly when referring to Ukranians. Well, I’d take offence to being called “cock hole” 😃 * * * But yeah, to the OP, it’s all about context and history, yadda yadda. There are other examples of racial slurs that, etymologically-speaking are harmless. e.g. “paki” in the UK. And although it may be difficult to sympathisize because terms like “whitey” and “white boy” don’t really carry much sting: they probably would if you lived in a country where whites were a minority group. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/90 "2009-05-15T17:02:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There are other examples of racial slurs that, etymologically-speaking are harmless. e.g. “paki” in the UK. I’d guess the majority of racial slurs are etymologically speaking are harmless – Jap, Nip, Hebe, Gook, Flip – they’re mostly just abbreviations of the real word. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/91 "2009-05-15T19:13:48Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Those don’t sound like bad connotations to me. Well, “most clean for a Chinaman” is a bit backhanded, but would sound equally bad as “most clean for a Chinese person.” > > Has nobody noticed that the construction “Englishman” or “Frenchman” on the one hand and “Chinaman” on the other is fundamentally different? The proper analogy would be “England-man” or “France-man”. > > If I said “hey, you England-man” or “hey you France woman” it would sound odd and a bit aggressive, don’t you think? “Hey you Ireland man, why don’t ya piss off back to Ireland?” Like Ireland is some exotic place and you belong _there_ and sure as fuck don’t belong _here_. That is because in Chinese that is what they say: China-man, Germany-man, etc. They do not have an adjective form. So a Chinese would say “I am China-man” or “he is China-man” and that is most probably the origin of the English expression. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/92 "2009-05-16T00:13:26Z")
? ?rén ? n. person; people Literally it is not ‘man’ so please don’t use the old ‘well, it’s what the Chinese call themselves’ excuse or justific ation. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/93 "2009-05-16T00:34:13Z")
Local American writer Dean Barrett has at least one [Chinaman noir-mystery novel](http://www.amazon.com/Murder-China-Red-Chinaman-Mystery/dp/0966189949). The protagonist is a Chinese-American from Beijing in New York who goes by the name Chinaman. He pops up in at least one other book, too. Barrett was a Chinese linguist with the US Army Security Agency. But I don’t know how he feels about the word in everyday use. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/94 "2009-05-16T00:44:21Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’d guess the majority of racial slurs are etymologically speaking are harmless – Jap, Nip, Hebe, Gook, Flip – they’re mostly just abbreviations of the real word. I’m reminded of a story [Senator Daniel Inouye](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Inouye) used to like to tell. I heard him tell it when I lived in Hawaii. (For those who don’t know Inouye, he is of Japanese heritage and was highly decorated – Medal of Honor – in WWII, during which he lost his right arm.) He said when he first went to Washington, he was kept waiting for a while in the presence of presumably the senior senator from the state – my memory is fuzzy on that point – but he finally cleared his throat and said: “Excuse me, I’m Daniel Inouye.” The guy keeping him waiting said: “I know who you are! How many one-armed Japs do you think we have running around here?” (He always thought that incident funny, but probably he would not think use of the word funny in most circumstances.) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/95 "2009-05-16T02:22:35Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > ? ?rén ? n. person; people > > Literally it is not ‘man’ so please don’t use the old ‘well, it’s what the Chinese call themselves’ excuse or justific ation. I know full well that ren means person but, in my experience, when Chinese people speak limited English they will say Germany-man, not Germany-person, and China-man, not China-person. They do not distinguish in English between noun and adjective because their native language does not do it either. And I can imagine that when the first English traders went to China a simplified English would develop and even the English might say China-man in order to be better understood. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/96 "2009-05-16T02:28:43Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > That is because in Chinese that is what they say: China-man, Germany-man, etc. They do not have an adjective form. So a Chinese would say “I am China-man” or “he is China-man” and that is most probably the origin of the English expression. Bullshit – you don’t think Koreans, Japanese, Thai etc. don’t have similar constructions in their native languages? But I can’t think of _any_ other Engish descriptor that follows the [country’s proper name] + “man” construction. But as for Chinese themselves saying “I am China man” _in English_ as part of the old [Chinese pidgin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Pidgin_English) language, you oughta know that whole patois is considered offensive these days. “No tickee no washee!” So to me “Chinaman” smacks of pidgin language, and ought to be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/97 "2009-05-19T05:01:25Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > ? ?rén ? n. person; people > > Literally it is not ‘man’ so please don’t use the old ‘well, it’s what the Chinese call themselves’ excuse or justific ation. No, it is people as translated into English. Pictographically, In Collective, it is more than one _man_. It is just a picture of a few to several men. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/98 "2009-05-19T05:13:27Z")
I will give you Chinaman as an archaic…disputably insulting term, within the English dialect… recognizing a slightly different pedigree within the American-English dialect… But what about the far older, single term, honorific and ultimate kaotow- [China](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_porcelain). You did something so prodigiously awesome, that you were fucking synonomous with the highest quality. Explain that dichotomy. My Granny used to bring the China off the shelf. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145/99 "2009-05-19T05:23:29Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > But what about the far older, single term, honorific and ultimate kaotow- [China](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_porcelain). You did something so prodigiously awesome, that you were fucking synonomous with the highest quality. Explain that dichotomy. My Granny used to bring the China off the shelf. 😕 看不懂 – whatchu talkin’ about, Willis? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-chinaman-an-insulting-term/496145.md?page=4)