# What makes Palestinian children unique? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2002, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141 "2002-12-27T11:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/81 "2002-12-31T03:18:17Z")
Sorry I can’t let that just lie. Feeling that Israel is in the wrong is reason to deny her from having a chance to equally participate in the process? Feeling that Israel is in the wrong is reason to single her out for 26% of all human rights condemnations for such henious offenses as preventing children from attending thier usual school, while truly barbaric offenses in this world go unaddressed? and the governments that commit these atrocities have regional memberships, are elgible for all committees and the SC and go unnamed for human rights violations. But this is just because the GA impartially feel that Israel is wrong? And apparently doesn’t believe that any other government, no matter how horrific their record, is “in the wrong”. Yeah, we’ll have to disagree on this one. ::rolleyes:: ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/82 "2002-12-31T20:16:33Z")
Just some additional factoids gleaned from Human Rights Watch: While Israel has been repeatedly named by the UN for its alleged offenses, the following goes unnamed - torture in Egypt, death sentance for dissent in Iran, suicide bombers representing “a crime against humanity”, Nigera upholding a death by stoning verdict for a woman’s infidelity, Spain and Morocco routinely beating migrant children … Systemic human rights abuses by many countries, specifically many of the same countries who eagerly condemn Israel, go unaddressed and unmentioned. Just an oversight by an inconsequential commission? A consequence of special obligation to monitor Isreal? Here is HRW’s take on it, [http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/04/chr041902.htm](http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/04/chr041902.htm) > [@](#): > > In recent years, many highly abusive governments facing censure by the Commission on Human Rights (CHR) successfully fought to gain seats on the U.N. body as a way of fending off criticism. Today, as the period in which the CHR considers the records of individual countries began drawing to a close, that cynical strategy reaped big rewards. > > 1. Countries with disturbing human rights records now command a significant bloc of votes on the commission. Those countries include: Algeria, Burundi, China, Cuba, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Indonesia, Kenya, Libya, Malaysia, Nigeria, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Togo and Vietnam. > In addition, many Western countries, particularly those from the European Union, have been less outspoken this year than in the past. In a bow to the opponents of “naming and shaming,” the European Union departed from its long-established practice of naming the worst violators in its speech under the agenda item dealing with country situations. Instead it chose to distribute that part of its statement in a separate written text. So with this bloc preventing censure of each other in a you-scratch-my-back-I’ll-scratch-yours fashion they were left to condemn Israel almost exclusively. And who is going to be the next chair of the UN Human Rights Commission, the same Commission that Israel has not even been elgible to attend meetings of? Why that stalwart defender of human rights and liberty, Libya! HRW’s take on that is that the UN commission is, [http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/iranno042202.htm](http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/iranno042202.htm) > [@](#): > > dominated by abusive governments that are more intent on blocking progress … than upholding human rights … Libya not only has a long record of human rights abuses but has routinely failed to cooperate with the commission … Hey **Tamerlane** have some chutzpah! If you are willing to call Cel-Ray poison, then be willing to take a stand on the fairness or lack thereof of the UN visavis Israel. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/83 "2002-12-31T20:28:05Z")
Why is the UN addressing “children” at all? This just makes the UN seem even more hopelessly irrelevent. Who cares how old someone is, really. Are not all human beings equal? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/84 "2002-12-31T20:45:31Z")
D Seid, you have failed to show a scrap of evidence that Israel are being unfairly criticized (if you actually read the UN resolutions most of them are perfectly reasonable), yes, some human rights abuses are not getting enough attention (for reasons that seem to be wholly unconnected to the fact that they are not Israel), but the solution to this is not to ignore Israel’s huge catalogue of abuses, but it is to bring to attention the abuses of the other countries too. Zuma - Children need special protection, as they are the least able to provide protection for themselves. I find your reasoning a little bizarre, in nearly all countries there are huge bodies of laws specifically designed to protect children and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone question the fairness of this. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/85 "2002-12-31T22:02:56Z")
Now then what do you consider “fair”? I’ll make an analogy. If it was true that in the United States a white man could murder a black man and get off with serving one or two years or even go free, but a black man injuring a white man got the death penalty, then that would be “unfair.” If laws were made in the United states that were applied only to Blacks and Blacks were excluded from any process that made those laws, then that would be unfair. Even if the Black man _had_ committed murder, or did commit a crime. I am not arguing that Israel has been without sin\*. Israel consists of real people who are no more or less subject to human failings than anyone else. Hate exists on both sides of the Green line at this point. Some of what Israel has done is wrong, IMHO. Arab children _should_ be able to attend their usual schools, for example. Schools should be funded equally in all districts, not less in Arab ones. I can read HRW reports on Israel and see their points for lots of what they accuse Israel of. And disagree with some of it. Minimally I respect HRW as “fair” because they apply the same, perhaps occassionally unrealistic, standards to everyone. They condemn the Palestinians even more strongly that they condemn the Israelis (“crimes against humanity”). They condemn other Arab nations. They condemn the United States. They don’t only pick on Israel and routinely give Arab nations or peoples a pass. The UN is _not_ fair. It singles out Israel for condemnation for relatively mild offenses while leaving systemic abuses by others unmentioned. It denies Israel a voice in the process. This is exactly the equivilent of the hypothetical Black American situation above. \*But “huge catalogue”? Nah. Not even in the running for serious human rights violations. ---
**Author:** ![Rogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rogg)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/86 "2002-12-31T22:17:47Z")
WE cant judge the bias reflected by the resolution without reading its text. We are each showing our own biases about the UN by the opinions we are expressing here! There is a fair and level reason the UN might have passed a resolution regarding the Palestinian children: their own mothers have advocated their strapping on explosives and taking their own lives! If the resolution implores the Palestinians to no longer destroy their children in this way, then no anti-Israeli bias is expressed. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/87 "2002-12-31T23:29:25Z")
If you fail to recognize that Israel has consistentally commited human rights violation after violation for the past 35 years, then you might think their treatment unfair. But Israel are one of the worst and most consistent human rights abusers and the UN General Assembly resolutions reflect this. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/88 "2003-01-01T00:30:18Z")
**DSeid** : My honest answer is I’m not certain. Well, I’m certain about Cel-Ray, which is foulness squared ;). But my opinion on whether UN is an unfair broker vis-a-vis Israel is mixed. I do think you and **Izzy** make some compellling arguments regarding the intense focus on Israel vs., say, Myanmar/Burma ( which certainly gets its share of condemnation, but probably _relatively_ less intense scrutiny Israel ). I agree that the Arab numerical superiority, Muslim sympathy, and even the amorphous “third-world” solidarity ( anti-perceived western imperialism, fair or unfair in categorization or not ) plays a part in this increased scrutiny. However I also think there is a unique historical element ( the unusual nature of the state of Israel vis-a-vis its recent and contentious establishment ) and unusual strategic element ( including a legacy left over from the Cold War when this was a particularly tense proxy struggle ) that makes some of this focus natural. _And_, I am not at all certain whether all this adds up to the U.N. being a de facto unreliable broker. Lots of resolutions that focus on Israel being brought by member states as part of a democratic process, does not mean at the end of the day that U.N. negotiators or peacekeepers are going to be irredeemably biased in favor of the Palestinians. It does mean you can be _suspicious_ that this might be the case. But I remain unconvinced ( or at least uncertain ) of whether this is actually the case. In part this stems from my belief that internationalization has some real upsides to it - I, for example, remain staunchly in favor of a fully internationalized Jerusalem under U.N. auspices ( perhaps as a new capital for that organization ) and completely ( and yes, permanently ) outside of Israeli or Palestinian control. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/89 "2003-01-01T00:56:45Z")
Interesting. Except I’m imagining how New Yorkers would feel if New York were turned over to U.N. jurisdiction. Who would defend the New Jerusalem from foreign takeover? U.N. troops? Like in Rwanda? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/90 "2003-01-01T01:08:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > But Israel are one of the worst and most consistent human rights abusers and the UN General Assembly resolutions reflect this. Really? Worse and more consistently worse than [Algeria](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/algeria!Open), [China](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/china!Open), [Iraq](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/iraq!Open), [Liberia](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/afr/liberia!Open), [Myanmar (Burma)](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/myanmar!Open), [North Korea](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/democratic+people%27s+republic+of+korea!Open), [Saudi Arabia](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/saudi+arabia!Open), [the Sudan](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/afr/sudan!Open), or [Vietnam](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/viet+nam!Open)? And if you look at Israel over the whole course of its existence, are you saying it was a more consistently worse abuser of human rights than such states as Hoxha’s Albania, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, Mengistu’s Ethiopia, Mobutu’s Zaire, or the USSR? I mean, that’s not exactly a _defense_ of [Israel](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/israel+and+the+occupied+territories+!Open)’s human rights record, but it just doesn’t help the real case to be made against Israeli policies to engage in that sort of reckless hyperbole. It really does just sound like anti-Israel bias, rather than legitimate criticism. (Now, if you want to compare Israel to [India](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/india!Open), [Turkey](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/eur/turkey!Open), or for that matter the [United States](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/usa!Open), you would have a much more reasonable case.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/91 "2003-01-01T01:20:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Except I’m imagining how New Yorkers would feel if New York were turned over to U.N. jurisdiction. Not happy. But then New York isn’t the crossroads for three major religions, is it? In point of fact I expect neither the Palestinians nor Israelis to accept such a thing. I just think it is the best practical solution ( and I say practical even though the chances of it ever happening is very, very low ). > [@](#): > > Who would defend the New Jerusalem from foreign takeover? Who would take it over? Israel? Palestine? Jordan? Those are the only three contenders I see as being capable of such a thing, considering proximity. The Palestinians have not the force, especially if Israel moved to prevent ( starting perhaps another war, but oh well - that’s what deterrent means ). Jordan is unlikely to intervene and would be most hampered by logistics. It, to, is incapable of pulling such a thing off under Israel’s nose. Israel would be bound, as a democratic society, by force of treaty. If they violated it, one response might be to them committing such an act in defiance of U.N. authority would be to treat them like Iraq vis-a-vis Kuwait. Even if such a thing were vetoed in the security council, overwhelming world pressure would likely cause an eventual internal fracture in the internal Israeli body politic ( which is nothing if not internally divided ) and a retraction. I don’t consider foreign invasion much of an issue. But again, I don’t consider this scenario to ever arise in the first place, as I doubt either side would ever accept internationalization. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/92 "2003-01-01T01:25:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I mean, that’s not exactly a defense of Israel’s human rights record, but it just doesn’t help the real case to be made against Israeli policies to engage in that sort of reckless hyperbole. I was going to post something along the same lines. Israel’s record really isn’t stellar, but it is way above many others. Much as I find certain actions by the Israeli government /military questionable, counter-productive, or outright wrong, they are still miles above many of the petty dictatorships that dot the world. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/93 "2003-01-01T01:28:25Z")
That should be “…miles above the many petty dictatorships…”, - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/94 "2003-01-01T07:58:58Z")
Well Tamerlane, thanks for your honest answer. I still like Cel-Ray. I would thnk that the natural historical focus would apply to Palestinian offenses as well as Israeli ones. And while it may be true that the UN, in fact, _could_ potentially be an honest broker, there is no evidence that they would be. All Israel has to go on is the track record. Based on that they can only conclude that there is little likelihood of getting a fair hearing. Rogg, see Duck Duck’s post of 12-28-2002 04:39 PM. She was kind enough to post the draft resolution. No mention of anything other than Israeli wrongs. The US’s response said it well > [@](#): > > The representative of the United States said the United States could not support the draft resolution since it was unbalanced, singled out one party in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and did not reflect the complexity or context of the situation on the ground. For example, the draft resolution ignored the participation, acknowledgement and acceptance of the use of Palestinian children to perpetrate suicide bombings by groups such as the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade – despite widespread Palestinian unease with such tactics. > > According to Amnesty International, Palestinian Authority television programming had explicitly encouraged children to take part in clashes with Israeli forces and extolled the virtues of “martyrdom”. The United States was deeply concerned about the situation of all Palestinian and Israeli children … ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/95 "2003-01-01T08:34:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*Really? Worse and more consistently worse than [Algeria](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/algeria!Open), [China](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/china!Open), [Iraq](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/iraq!Open), [Liberia](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/afr/liberia!Open), [Myanmar (Burma)](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/myanmar!Open), [North Korea](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/democratic+people%27s+republic+of+korea!Open), [Saudi Arabia](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/saudi+arabia!Open), [the Sudan](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/afr/sudan!Open), or [Vietnam](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/viet+nam!Open)? And if you look at Israel over the whole course of its existence, are you saying it was a more consistently worse abuser of human rights than such states as Hoxha’s Albania, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, Mengistu’s Ethiopia, Mobutu’s Zaire, or the USSR? > > I mean, that’s not exactly a _defense_ of [Israel](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/israel+and+the+occupied+territories+!Open)’s human rights record, but it just doesn’t help the real case to be made against Israeli policies to engage in that sort of reckless hyperbole. It really does just sound like anti-Israel bias, rather than legitimate criticism. (Now, if you want to compare Israel to [India](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/india!Open), [Turkey](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/eur/turkey!Open), or for that matter the [United States](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/usa!Open), you would have a much more reasonable case.) \*\* Israel’s human rights abuses fit in with the first clique of countries that you mentioned (though as someone, who has lived in Turkey, I have to tell you they too belong in the first group). Israel is one of the worst human rights abusers (a trend that has held since the start of the occupation), though generally not to it’s own citizens, but to the protected persons under it’s control. If you compare the real-term suffering caused by Israel’s policies with those of Saudi Arabia’s policies the two countries don’t even compare. All the regimes that you mentioned as worst than Israel are now defunct and therefore irrelevant. Israel has no right what so ever to be in Palestine and it is it’s occupation that create the conditions which causes suicide bombers. There is a clear relationship between Israel and the Palestinians of oppressor and oppressed and as such Israel are always likely to be judged more harshly in comparisions of policy. The only thing I have against Israel is it’s occupation. It is completely within Israel’s power to end and yet it’s elected leaders contrive to make the situation worst. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/96 "2003-01-01T20:03:53Z")
I honestly don’t know how to argue with someone who thinks Israel’s human rights record is as bad as that of Myanmar or Iraq or North Korea. For whatever reason, you appear to be blinded by a hatred of Israel. I don’t think this sort of “criticism” will really do any good, though. Something more rational might actually hit home with people, but this will simply be dismissed as blatant propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/97 "2003-01-01T22:19:20Z")
I didn’t say Israel’s human rights record was as bad as Iraq, Myanamar or North Korea, but Israel is still one of the worst human rights abusers (certainly the worst western democracy)and AFAIK the only country that has a human rights group that is primarily set up to deal with it’s abuses. Israel is a major human rights abuser, there is no point burying your head in the sand and denying it. Few countries have willfully caused such a large population displacement as Israel, few countries have placed an entire nation under house arrest, among western democracies Israel is the only one that practices legalised torture and summary executions. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/98 "2003-01-02T06:27:42Z")
Turkey, a Western democracy with torture and executions. [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html) [http://www.amnestyusa.org/turkey/women.html](http://www.amnestyusa.org/turkey/women.html) > **[Turkey](https://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/turkey/)** > > Amnesty International works to stop Turkey human rights violations. Turkey human rights abuses can end with your support. Mexico, a Western democracy with torture and executions. [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html) [http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/AMR410082001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\MEXICO](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/AMR410082001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CMEXICO) Russia, a Western democracy with torture and executions. [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html) [http://www.amnesty.org/russia/torture.html](http://www.amnesty.org/russia/torture.html) [http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html](http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html) ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/99 "2003-01-02T06:34:23Z")
Turkey, Russia amd Mexico are hardly what you would call western democracies and the point I was making was _legalised_ torture and _summary_ executions ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/100 "2003-01-02T07:20:10Z")
Beg to differ. Turkey, Russia, and Mexico are just as much Western democracies as Israel is. From the CIA World Fact Book links. > [@](#): > > **Turkey: republican parliamentary democracy** > > **Executive branch:** chief of state: President Ahmet Necdet SEZER (since 16 May 2000) > > elections: president elected by the National Assembly for a seven-year term; election last held 5 May 2000 (next to be held NA May 2007); prime minister and deputy prime ministers appointed by the president > > note: a National Security Council serves as an advisory body to the president and the cabinet > > cabinet: Council of Ministers appointed by the president on the nomination of the prime minister > > head of government: Prime Minister Bulent ECEVIT (since 11 January 1999) > > election results: Ahmed Necdet SEZER elected president on the third ballot; percent of National Assembly vote - 60% > > note: president must have a two-thirds majority of the National Assembly on the first two ballots and a simple majority on the third ballot > > **Legislative branch:** unicameral Grand National Assembly of Turkey or Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi (550 seats; members are elected by popular vote to serve five-year terms) > > elections: last held 18 April 1999 (next to be held NA 2004) > > election results: percent of vote by party - NA%; seats by party - DSP 136, MHP 130, FP 110, DYP 86, ANAP 88; note - as of 11 January 2002 seating was DSP 129, MHP 127, DYP 84, ANAP 79, AK 53, Saadet 48, independents 20, vacancies 10 > > \*\*Judicial branch: \*\* Constitutional Court (judges are appointed by the president); Court of Appeals (judges are elected by the Supreme Council of Judges and Prosecutors) > [@](#): > > \*\*Russia: federation \*\* > > **Executive Branch:** chief of state: President Vladimir Vladimirovich PUTIN (acting president since 31 December 1999, president since 7 May 2000) > > head of government: Premier Mikhail Mikhaylovich KASYANOV (since 7 May 2000); Deputy Premiers Aleksey Leonidovich KUDRIN (since 18 May 2000), Aleksey Vasilyevich GORDEYEV (since 20 May 2000), Viktor Borisovich KHRISTENKO (since 31 May 1999), Valentina Ivanovna MATVIYENKO (since 22 September 1998) > > cabinet: Ministries of the Government or “Government” composed of the premier and his deputies, ministers, and other agency heads; all are appointed by the president > > note: there is also a Presidential Administration ¶ that provides staff and policy support to the president, drafts presidential decrees, and coordinates policy among government agencies; a Security Council also reports directly to the president > > election results: Vladimir Vladimirovich PUTIN elected president; percent of vote - Vladimir Vladimirovich PUTIN 52.9%, Gennadiy Andreyevich ZYUGANOV 29.2%, Grigoriy Alekseyevich YAVLINSKIY 5.8% > > elections: president elected by popular vote for a four-year term; election last held 26 March 2000 (next to be held NA 2004); note - no vice president; if the president dies in office, cannot exercise his powers because of ill health, is impeached, or resigns, the premier succeeds him; the premier serves as acting president until a new presidential election is held, which must be within three months; premier appointed by the president with the approval of the Duma > > **Legislative branch:** bicameral Federal Assembly or Federalnoye Sobraniye consists of the Federation Council or Sovet Federatsii (178 seats; as of July 2000, members appointed by the top executive and legislative officials in each of the 89 federal administrative units - oblasts, krays, republics, autonomous okrugs and oblasts, and the federal cities of Moscow and Saint Petersburg; members serve four-year terms) and the State Duma or Gosudarstvennaya Duma (450 seats; 225 seats elected by proportional representation from party lists winning at least 5% of the vote, and 225 seats from single-member constituencies; members are elected by direct popular vote to serve four-year terms) > > election results: State Duma - percent of vote received by parties clearing the 5% threshold entitling them to a proportional share of the 225 party list seats - KPRF 24.29%, Unity 23.32%, OVR 13.33%, Union of Right Forces 8.52%, LDPR 5.98%, Yabloko 5.93%; seats by party - KPRF 113, Unity 72, OVR 67, Union of Rightist Forces 29, LDPR 17, Yabloko 21, other 16, independents 106, repeat election required 8, vacant 1 > > elections: State Duma - last held 19 December 1999 (next to be held NA December 2003) > > **Judicial branch:** Constitutional Court; Supreme Court; Superior Court of Arbitration; judges for all courts are appointed for life by the Federation Council on the recommendation of the president > [@](#): > > \*\*Mexico: federal republic \*\* > > **Executive branch:** chief of state: President Vicente FOX Quesada (since 1 December 2000); note - the president is both the chief of state and head of government > > election results: Vicente FOX Quesada elected president; percent of vote - Vicente FOX Quesada (PAN) 42.52%, Francisco LABASTIDA Ochoa (PRI) 36.1%, Cuauhtemoc CARDENAS Solorzano (PRD) 16.64%, other 4.74% > > elections: president elected by popular vote for a six-year term; election last held 2 July 2000 (next to be held NA July 2006) > > cabinet: Cabinet appointed by the president; note - appointment of attorney general requires consent of the Senate > head of government: President Vicente FOX Quesada (since 1 December 2000); note - the president is both the chief of state and head of government > > \*\*Legislative branch: \*\* bicameral National Congress or Congreso de la Union consists of the Senate or Camara de Senadores (128 seats; 96 are elected by popular vote to serve six-year terms, and 32 are allocated on the basis of each party’s popular vote) and the Federal Chamber of Deputies or Camara Federal de Diputados (500 seats; 300 members are directly elected by popular vote to serve three-year terms; remaining 200 members are allocated on the basis of each party’s popular vote, also for three-year terms) > > election results: Senate - percent of vote by party - NA%; seats by party - PRI 60, PAN 46, PRD 15, PVEM 5, PT 1, CD 1; Chamber of Deputies - percent of vote by party - NA%; seats by party - PRI 211, PAN 207, PRD 50, PVEM 16, PT 8, PSN 3, PAS 2, CD 1, independents 2 > > elections: Senate - last held 2 July 2000 for all of the seats (next to be held NA 2006); Chamber of Deputies - last held 2 July 2000 (next to be held NA 2003) > > **Judicial branch:** Supreme Court of Justice or Corte Suprema de Justicia (judges are appointed by the president with consent of the Senate) [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*Israel: parliamentary democracy \*\* > > **Executive branch:** chief of state: President Moshe KATSAV (since 31 July 2000) > > elections: president elected by the Knesset for a five-year term; election last held 31 July 1999 (next to be held NA July 2003); prime minister elected by popular vote for a four-year term; election last held 6 February 2001 (next to be held NA November 2003); note - in March 1992, the Knesset approved legislation, effective in 1996, which allowed for the direct election of the prime minister, but in 2001 the Knesset voted to restore the previous method under which the legislators will choose the next prime minister after the next legislative elections in 2003 > > head of government: Prime Minister Ariel SHARON (since 7 March 2001) > > cabinet: Cabinet selected by prime minister and approved by the Knesset > > election results: Moshe KATSAV elected president by the 120-member Knesset with a total of 60 votes, other candidate, Shimon PERES, received 57 votes (there were three abstentions); Ariel SHARON elected prime minister; percent of vote - Ariel SHARON 62.5%, Ehud BARAK 37.4%; note - after the next legislative elections scheduled for 2003, the prime minister will be elected by the Knesset > > \*\*Legislative branch: \*\* unicameral Knesset or parliament (120 seats; members elected by popular vote to serve four-year terms) > > elections: last held 17 May 1999 (next to be held NA November 2003) > > election results: percent of vote by party - One Israel 20.2%, Likud Party 14.1%, Shas 13%, Meretz 7.6%, Yisra’el Ba’Aliya 5.1%, Shinui 5%, Center Party 5%, National Religious Party 4.2%, United Torah Judaism 3.7%, United Arab List 3.4%, National Union 3%, Hadash 2.6%, Yisra’el Beiteinu 2.6%, Balad 1.9%, One Nation 1.9%, Democratic Movement NA (party formed after election, members elected under Yisra’el Ba’Aliya list); > > seats by party - One Israel 24, Likud Party 19, Shas 17, MERETZ 10, Yisra’el Ba’Aliya 4, Shinui 6, Center Party 5, National Religious Party 5, United Torah Judaism 5, United Arab List 5, National Union 3, Hadash 3, Yisra’el Beiteinu 4, Democratic Movement 2 (party formed after election, members elected under Yisra’el Ba’Aliya list), Balad 2, One Nation 2 > > \*\*Judicial branch: \*\* Supreme Court (justices appointed for life by the president) There are minor variations, but all four governments are your basic “western democracy”. Elected officials in the Executive Branch, elected representatives in the Legislative Branch, and appointed higher-level judges in the Judicial Branch. “Summary” executions means “quickly”, and the meaning is “…and without a trial”. > **[Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary](https://www.merriam-webster.com/)** > > The dictionary by Merriam-Webster is America's most trusted online dictionary for English word definitions, meanings, and pronunciation. #wordsmatter > [@](#): > > Main Entry: 1sum·ma·ry > Function: adjective > Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin summarius, from Latin summa sum > Date: 15th century > > 1 : COMPREHENSIVE; especially : covering the main points succinctly > 2 a : \*\*done without delay or formality : quickly executed \*\*\ Russia, Turkey, and Mexico all are on Amnesty International’s official shit list as having summary executions–quick informal executions without trials. As for “legalised” torture, no, obviously none of them has “legalized” torture, although it apparently is winked at by the respective Powers That Be, but I’d like to see a cite for the fact that Israel has legalized torture. AI reports only that Israel is “practicing” or apparently “officially tolerating” torture, the same way that Russia, Turkey, and Mexico are “practicing” or apparently “officially tolerating” torture, but I don’t see anything that says it’s actually “legalized”. I would think that if torture were actually legal in Israel, AI and HRW would be raising holy hell about it. But I don’t see that. [http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/MDE150802002](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/MDE150802002) I do, however, see lots of websites saying that what the IDF is doing “_amounts to_ legalized torture”. Well, I’m sorry, but for purposes of debate, saying “amounts to being legalized” isn’t the same thing as actually being legalized. If we were talking about the legalization of marijuana, it wouldn’t be the same thing to say that the authorities winking at personal use of marijuana in some localities means that it’s “legalized” there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141.md?page=6)