# What makes Palestinian children unique? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2002, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141 "2002-12-27T11:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/101 "2003-01-02T07:34:47Z")
Yes, I am well aware of the political systems operating in those countries (I have lived in Turkey, or more correctly North Cyprus, briefly). They are democracies but I would not define them as _western_ democracies (obviously a subjective defintion but still the generally understood one). The torture in Israel is legalised and torturers are operating within the remit of Israeli law: [http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/IsraelsTortureBan.html](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/IsraelsTortureBan.html) (btw not sniping but “legalised” is the UK English spelling of the word that’s why I use it) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/102 "2003-01-02T08:08:29Z")
I don’t care whether you use an “s” or a “z”. What on earth makes you think I do? 😕 I don’t understand why you consider Israel a “western” democracy and not Turkey, Russia, and Mexico. Please elaborate on the criteria you are using to distinguish between them. And I was able to ascertain that torture is in fact no longer legal in Israel–the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed it in September of 1999, effectively negating the Landau Commission. I notice that the date on Alexander Cockburn’s _Nation_ article is September 27, 1999. Evidently the magazine went to press before the Supreme Court decision was made public. [http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9909/06/israel.torture/](http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9909/06/israel.torture/) > [@](#): > > Israel Supreme Court bans interrogation abuse of Palestinians > September 6, 1999 > Web posted at: 9:20 p.m. EDT (0120 GMT) > > From staff and wire reports > > JERUSALEM – Setting a landmark in Israel’s decades-old conflict between democracy and security, between respecting human rights and protecting citizens from terrorism, the Supreme Court on Monday banned the use of torture in interrogations. > > \< snip \> > > But Feldman and other human rights activists celebrated the high court’s ruling that outlawed the use of physical force in the interrogation of Palestinian detainees. > > The court said Israel does have “unique security problems.” But the nine justices were unanimous. > > \< snip \> > > Though they unanimously banned the practices, the nine Supreme Court justices noted that the state still has the right to defend itself. > > If the Shin Bet believes it must torture a suspect to reveal the location of a “ticking bomb,” the torturer would be put on trial, but a court might accept the argument that physical force was necessary. > > Routine torture, the court ruled, “does not constitute a reasonable investigation practice” and is banned. > > “These prohibitions are absolute,” it said. > > Correspondent Jerrold Kessel and The Associated Press contributed to this report. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/103 "2003-01-02T08:28:25Z")
I was unaware of the repeal (probably as torture is still practiced in Israel). A Western democracy is simply a first-world democracy. ---
**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/104 "2003-01-02T13:59:33Z")
for DSeid, IzzyR, MEBuckner Some people suffer from a deep psychological fear of having to admit they are wrong, and will go to any lengths to avoid doing what would in effect destroy the self-image that they have carefully nurtured. You can easily identify them in this forum by following postings where their positions are refuted by strong logical or factual arguments. They either change the subject, distort the words used in an argument, whine and nitpick, or just stop responding. Anything rather than say those very simple words - “I have given my postition further thought, find I was mistaken and have learned something new - thank you!”. In this thread (which I started in the hope that some rational debate was possible) you will see many such trends. I can only suggest that you follow my own remedy. When it becomes obvious that the poster is so blinded by his own sense of self-importance that no amount of argument can change him, stop arguing. You are in effect cutting off his lifeline, his supply of oxygen and hopefully he will eventually fall by the wayside, moving on to some other thread where he can feed his ego off someone else’s naivete. For my part, you have tried your best, and I thank you. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/105 "2003-01-02T15:15:27Z")
rampisad, I think that you may be right. It gets somewhat bizzare when the Israel is a _Western_ democracy that should be held to those standards, but Mexico is not Western, or not a democracy? I’ll probably stop here. The point of the op has been well played out. And I don’t really want to get into the position of defending those things I consider that Israel has done wrong. I’d just like to keep it in perspective. “Summary executions” - I am not a fan of capital punishment at all, and lean to the HRW POV that any capital punishment is a human rights violation. To execute without trial because you “know” that someone is a “bad guy” who plans on committing some murders … is wrong. Of course Israel has good company in this: the US among others. I recognize the logic that a capture under these circumstances may risk even more deaths on both sides, and that it would be inexcusable to allow a terrrorist the chance to murder a dozen people before reacting, and that the argument can be made that those targetted are not civilians but individuals who have declared themselves to be soldiers in a war against Israel, and that military standard for conflict should apply. But I just don’t buy that “extrajudicial executions” is justified even under such circumstances. What AI is saying may be “torture” … is prolonged arrests without contact and strict curfews. And they may even have a point. But to place this in the class of torture that has been committted by the worst human rights abusers is just obscene Israel hating. The displacement of a large group of people? You did know, didn’t you, MC, that just as many Arab Jews fled and abandoned property and long time homes in Arab lands as did Palestinian Arabs from Israeli land? People made landless during a war? Never happens except when committed by those evil Israelis. Israel is fighting terrorism and she can’t do that and be perfect in every way, but Israel needs to do better. That cause is ill-served by the UN’s singling Israel out and ignoring offenses by everyone else. That only results is Israel’s hardline gaining further support for they are proved right. ---
**Author:** ![levy96018a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f6c823/32.png) [@levy96018a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levy96018a)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/106 "2003-01-02T19:36:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > \*\*Huh? . I would have thought that a massive 111-25 vote for repealing the “Zionism is racism” resolution is powerful evidence that the UN as a whole is **not** biased against Israel. Instead the site complains that the Arab countries didn’t vote for the resolution. > \*\* Your counter to UN bias is their great accomplishment of passing (not even close to unanimously) a resolution to repeal their own anti-semitic resolution? Woop-de-doo! A couple of examples examples: (1) For the first 45 years of the UN’s existence, Israel has been the only country that was excluded from a regional group. Without membership in a regional group, a country is ineligible to sit on the Security Council or other key UN bodies. They are finally in a group, but only on a temporary basis. It must be reapply to its current regional group every four years. Is this not institutional bias? (2) The Commission on Human Rights routinely adopts disproportionate resolutions concerning Israel. Of all condemnations of this agency, 26 percent refer to Israel alone, while rogue states such as Syria and Libya are never criticized. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/107 "2003-01-03T00:07:18Z")
Israel is a first world country, Mexico etc. are not. That is my point. Dseid the torture used by Israel, includes electrocution, sleep deprivation, chaining people to beds for long periods of time without water, whipping, strecthing, beatings, sexual abuse. cites: [http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=1](http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=1) [http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/66S21.htm](http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/66S21.htm) [http://www2.amnesty.se/aidoc/external.nsf/tempisrael/E3F4CC2AA07D5624802568E3006E042F?opendocument](http://www2.amnesty.se/aidoc/external.nsf/tempisrael/E3F4CC2AA07D5624802568E3006E042F?opendocument) As for the summary executions, they go beyond the Israeli government’s offical sanctioning of extrajudicial assasinations and into the realm of shooting surrendered Palestinian fighters and shooting civilians just for breaking curfew. cites: [http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-05.htm#P234\_38516](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-05.htm#P234_38516) Israel’s human rights record vis a vis the Palestinians is one of the worst in the world, this is hardly a new revelation. You cannot in good conscience defend or dismiss Israel’s human rights record as “not that bad”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/108 "2003-01-03T06:03:11Z")
MC, I am not giving up on you yet. I did not say “not that bad” quite simply because no human rights abuse is anything to be cavelair about, or to be ignored. But ignore is exactly what the UN does to much worse human rights abuses elsewhere in the world. Lert’s stick with Amnesty International for an apples to apples comparison with an organization that is beleivable to us both. We’ll start with their less than flattering assessment of Israel. [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/ISRAEL+AND+OCCUPIED+TERRITORIES?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/ISRAEL+AND+OCCUPIED+TERRITORIES?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > More than 300 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli security forces; most were unlawfully killed during the new Intifada (uprising). More than 2,500 Palestinians and Israelis were arrested for political reasons. Scores of detainees were ill-treated. At least 25 Palestinians were held in administrative detention during 2000. All Lebanese nationals held in the Khiam detention centre in southern Lebanon under Israeli occupation were released. Hundreds of Palestinians from the Occupied Territories were tried before military courts in trials whose procedures fell short of international standards. Houses in the Occupied Territories continued to be demolished as a result of a discriminatory policy which denied most Palestinians building permits. > {snip} > Torture/ill-treatment > > Draft bills submitted to the Knesset by individual members which would allow the General Security Service (GSS) to use ‘‘special means’’ to interrogate detainees were dropped in February. > > Palestinian detainees under interrogation were frequently held incommunicado for up to 20 days, and some for as long as 90 days. Many detainees reported that they were beaten immediately after arrest by members of the security forces who almost invariably benefited from impunity. Shameful to be sure. But as shameful as it is, it is less shameful than the charges against many other nations unnamed by the UN. How about the PA, unnamed by the UN? [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/PALESTINIAN+AUTHORITY?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/PALESTINIAN+AUTHORITY?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > More than 360 people, including prisoners of conscience, were arrested for political reasons during 2000; most had been released by the end of the year. Torture and ill-treatment were widespread. At least 300 people arrested in previous years were held without charge or trial, including people suspected of ‘‘collaborating’’ with the Israeli authorities and suspected members of Islamist opposition groups. Large numbers of Islamists, some of whom had been held without charge since 1996, were released in September and October. State Security Courts continued to sentence political detainees after unfair trials. Three people were sentenced to death. The Palestinian Authority (PA) failed to bring those responsible for human rights abuses to justice > {snip} > Torture and ill-treatment by various Palestinian security forces were widespread. One man died in custody in circumstances suggesting that torture or ill-treatment may have caused or hastened his death. Prolonged incommunicado detention in the period immediately after arrest facilitated torture. The PA failed to investigate complaints of torture and bring those responsible to justice. How about Iraq, [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/IRAQ?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/IRAQ?OpenDocument) where tongue amputation is one torture method? Or the next UN human rights chair, Libya, [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/LIBYA?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/LIBYA?OpenDocument) where > [@](#): > > Reported methods of torture included beatings, hanging by the wrists, being suspended from a pole inserted between the knees and elbows, electric shocks, burning with cigarettes and attacks by aggressive dogs, causing serious injuries. Oh yes none of these are Western democracies, and the UN should only comment about Western democracies. Or is it first world? Whatever. Let’s see what AI says about the United States. Since you don’t count Mexico or Turkey as Western or First World democracies like Israel seems to be classed by your system … [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webamrcountries/UNITED+STATES+OF+AMERICA?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webamrcountries/UNITED+STATES+OF+AMERICA?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > Torture and ill-treatment were reported in prisons, jails and juvenile detention facilities. Abuses included beatings and excessive force; sexual misconduct; the misuse of electro-shock weapons and chemical sprays; and the cruel use of mechanical restraints, including holding prisoners for prolonged periods in four-point restraint as punishment. Many reported abuses took place in isolation units or during forced removal of prisoners from cells (’‘cell extractions’’). > {snip} > Abuse of incarcerated children > Children in detention were subjected to ill-treatment which included the cruel use of restraints and prolonged isolation as punishment. Many children continued to be prosecuted as adults and sent to adult prisons where, in some states, they were not separated from adults and were held in inhumane or inappropriate conditions. > A study of the juvenile justice system published in April, sponsored by the US Justice Department and six of the country’s leading foundations, found that youths from ethnic minority groups, especially African Americans, were more likely to be imprisoned and to serve longer sentences than white youths charged with similar offences. > In February a lawsuit was filed alleging widespread abuse at the State Training School in Plankinton, South Dakota, a juvenile detention facility. Children were reportedly placed in punitive handcuffs and shackles; forced to lie spread-eagled in four-point restraints for hours at a time, including overnight; and girls were forcibly stripped by male staff while held in four-point restraint. It was also alleged that children, some of them mentally ill, were routinely held in isolation for 23 hours a day, sometimes for months at a time. > {snip} > Ill-treatment of women prisoners > Male guards continued to have unsupervised access to women prisoners or detainees in women’s prisons and local jails. There were allegations of sexual abuse of female prisoners by male staff in states including California, Connecticut, New York, South Carolina and West Virginia. Draft legislation was introduced in New York to ban pat-down searches of women prisoners by male staff. > Reports of ill-treatment of inmates at Wayne County Jail, West Virginia, included claims that women prisoners were made to parade partially naked in front of male inmates, forced to undergo strip searches by male guards, fondled by male officers or watched while dressing. One prisoner said she was coerced into a sexual relationship with a guard who later resigned. There were also allegations of assaults by guards against both male and female inmates and the abusive use of pepper spray. You can spend hours going through the human rights abuses listed, documented and/or alleged by AI and HRW for many countries. I’d suggest that you do so. See your Turkey’s record [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webeurcountries/TURKEY?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webeurcountries/TURKEY?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > Torture/ill-treatment > > Torture was widespread. There were numerous reports of torture and ill-treatment of men, women and children, mainly from western cities, the southeast and the region around Adana in the south. Many of the victims were political activists, including supporters of leftist, pro-Kurdish and Islamist groups. Despite intimidation and fear of reprisals, dozens of allegations of torture were received from people arrested on criminal charges. Other victims of torture and ill-treatment included Kurdish villagers, relatives of political activists, students and women’s groups. Allegations were also received from police officers and leading figures in organized crime. > > Torture and ill-treatment occurred mainly in police and gendarmerie stations during the first days after arrest. The most frequently reported methods included severe beatings, prolonged blindfolding, suspension by the arms or wrists, electric shocks, sexual abuse, and food and sleep deprivation for instance. None are “not that bad.” They are all awful, including the United States’ offenses. Funny how only Israel’s offenses, which from my read do not seem to be in the same class as many of the others, and certainly not the worst of the breed, merit specific censure by the UN. That you fail to recognize that this singling out of Israel by the UN is harmful to any potential for a UN role in the region is hard to understand. I would agree that the best solution is for the UN to adequately censure all human rights abuses. But it hasn’t happened. Others go unmentioned. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/109 "2003-01-03T15:13:20Z")
Now, to be fair, while AI didn’t allege torture by Israel this year, AI has stated that Israel committed torture in the past years, this from last years annual report. > [@](#): > > Torture and ill-treatment continued to be officially permitted and systematically used by the GSS to interrogate security detainees until September, when the High Court of Justice ruled that such interrogation methods were unlawful. The GSS immediately ceased to use the specified techniques, which included tiltul, violent shaking; shabeh, where detainees were shackled to low sloping chairs in contorted positions for extended periods and forced to listen to loud, distorted music; gambaz, where detainees were forced to crouch for extended periods; excessive tightening of handcuffs; and sleep deprivation. And HRW states the same were Israel’s past torture offenses, [http://www.hrw.org/reports98/israel/Isrl988-02.htm#P69\_9951](http://www.hrw.org/reports98/israel/Isrl988-02.htm#P69_9951) > [@](#): > > Israel’s use of hooding, shackling in painful positions, sleep-deprivation, and shaking of detainees during interrogation I have no problem with the UN having critcized Israel for these techniques, but if blindfolding, shaking, being forced to stand or sit in uncomfortable positions, and listening to loud bad music is cause for condemnation, then how come their is no UN outcry to the methods used by the PA? [http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/pa/](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/pa/) > [@](#): > > Methods of Torture and Ill-Treatment: Testimonies and Reports > Many of the methods of torture being used during this Intifada have been common since the PA was established, including: > > 1. · shabah, being made to stand or sit up in painful positions for long periods, often hooded or blindfolded and often combined with sleep deprivation; > · falaqa, beating on the soles of the feet; > · beating, punching and kicking the victim, especially around the head and ears, sometimes using a leather-covered stick about one meter long, and sometimes while the victim is hooded or blindfolded; > · suspension by the wrists, with feet barely touching the floor; > · threats of death or injury, including rape. > Palestinian human rights organizations also report that some techniques common in the past are still sometimes used, such as burning with cigarettes and exposure alternately to extremes of hot and cold. Families are often not allowed to visit detainees until signs of torture have faded. However, people who visited Nasr Abu Kbash (see above), told Human Rights Watch that they saw obvious signs of mistreatment, including a swollen face. 101 This was the first time he had been allowed visitors after his arrest by the GIS in November 2000 for alleged collaboration with Israel. > General Tawfiq Tirawi, the head of the General Intelligence Service in the West Bank, acknowledged to Human Rights Watch that Hussam al-‛?Aslini, convicted in January 2001 in Bethlehem (see State Security Court below), had been mistreated by the Criminal Investigation Police (al-bahth al-jina’i) when initially arrested in December 2000. Tirawi denied, however, that the detainee had been mistreated after he had been transferred to the custody of the GIS. Other sources alleged that the torture included being whipped with electrical wire, being forced to stand on sharp objects, and being threatened with death.102 > Khaled al-‛?Akkeh was arrested by the PSS in Gaza on February 14, 2001 and convicted by the Gaza State Security Court on August 12, 2001 of helping Israeli forces kill Mas’ud Ayyad on February 13, 2001. Over a period of eighteen days after his arrest al-‛?Akkeh was allegedly subjected to shabah and punched repeatedly in the face with his head hooded. He is said to have lost some vision in his right eye and some of his hearing in his left ear. He was able to receive visitors about twenty to thirty days after his arrest.103 Khaled al-‛?Akkeh was shot by police on September 9, 2001, apparently while trying to escape from custody (see Deaths in Custody below). > Sometimes torture is used to obtain false testimony to strengthen a case against another person. Yusra al-Ramlawi, a 29-year-old woman from Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip, was arrested in June by the GIS. Al-Ramlawi was not accused of being a collaborator herself, but was tortured in an unsuccessful attempt to persuade her to give false evidence that would implicate another person as a collaborator.104 A confidential source told Human Rights Watch al-Ramlawi was two months pregnant at the time of the arrest and had informed her interrogators of this. Nevertheless, she was beaten into unconsciousness, which caused her to miscarry and lose the fetus. Some days later an interrogator threatened to rape her, but stopped when al-Ramlawi screamed. Despite a complaint to other officers, that interrogator was back at work three days later. At the end of June, al-Ramlawi was transferred to the GIS section of al-Saraya prison in Gaza City, where she was allegedly further beaten. The interrogation and mistreatment only stopped when she was transferred to the main part of al-Saraya prison. There she was able to receive visitors but remained in detention without charge or trial as of the beginning of September.105 > > Torture is often used to extract a confession, but not always successfully. A 37-year-old Palestinian male from Nablus, whose identity is being kept confidential due to fear of possible reprisals, was arrested by the PSS in August 2001.106 During three days of interrogation he was reportedly punched and kicked and made to stand on one leg for many hours in an attempt to make him confess to cooperating with Israeli security. After three days, and failing to obtain a confession, the PSS transferred him to Junayd prison. After about ten days he was released, but was then rearrested almost two weeks later by the PSS. In the PSS section of Junayd prison he was reportedly subjected further to shabah in an attempt to force him to confess. > The Case of F.M., 28-Year-Old Woman107 > F.M., a 28-year-old woman, whose identity is known to Human Rights Watch but is being kept confidential due to fear of possible reprisals, was arrested by the General Intelligence Service in June 2001. The aim of her interrogation was to get her to admit to giving M…, a suspected collaborator, the names of Palestinians who were shooting at Israeli forces. Describing her second day of interrogation, F.M. told Human Rights Watch: > He [the interrogator] came and covered my eyes and pulled my hair. “What is your relationship with M…?” I said, “He is the neighbor of a relative.” “You didn’t know he is a collaborator?” He then struck me with both hands on the ears. I couldn’t hear anything [for a while]. He pushed me and I fell to the floor… “Raise your legs.” He brought a chair [and put my legs on them] and started hitting the soles of my feet with [a leather-covered stick used for animal herding]. > The interrogator threatened F.M. that her fate would be the same as a girl whose body had been found on the street recently. F.M. continued: > He told me “We are the strongest Palestinian group and we can do whatever we want …” “Excuse me,” said another man behind me, “it seems to me she doesn’t want to talk and I want to open her mouth to make her talk.” He then struck me on the ears again and beat my feet as I sat on a chair. I was then taken from the room and pushed into another room [used as a cell], still blindfolded. Suddenly someone kicked me karate style on the head. I fell unconscious on the floor. When I woke up I had a headache and couldn’t feel anything in my right hand and arm and my leg was numb. The next day both hands were numb and I could not see clearly. > F.M. was taken to a medical clinic where a nurse insisted on keeping her for treatment. This was refused and F.M. was returned to the detention center. Her treatment improved. For the next four weeks the GIS kept promising she would be released. Instead, F.M. was transferred to another detention center108 where she was interrogated for seven days, eight hours a day well into the night, again seeking a confession of a relationship with M… Here she was again subjected to falaqa and beatings, including from a female guard. F.M. explained: > Every time they asked me about M… and I said no, they would beat me… They would make me stand in the corridor outside [other interrogation rooms], just to listen. I could hear the men crying because of the torture. > Three months after being arrested, F.M. was released without charge. She has continuing medical effects of the torture, including constant headaches and difficulty walking. > Deaths in Custody > Five Palestinians are known to have died in police or security force custody since the current Intifada began, at least three in circumstances which suggest that torture may have contributed to the death Why is only Israel held to reasonable human standards while more horrific human rights abuses by Arabs (and others) are looked right past? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/110 "2003-01-03T15:56:55Z")
Israel’s use of torture is just as bad and uses all or equivalents of the methods (and others) as cited in that report on Palestinian torture and also it occurs with a greater frequency. > [@](#): > > Tying up detainee in painful positions for hours or days on end. > Solitary Confinement. > Confinement in tiny cubicles. > Beatings. > Violent “shaking”. > Deprivation of sleep and food. > Exposure to cold or heat. > Verbal, sexual and psychological abuse. > Threats against the individual or the individual’s family. > Lack of adequate clothing or hygiene. and though not specifically mentioned on that page, burning with cigarettes (included as cited in Palestinian report). [http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=1](http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=1) (note: this is a predominantly Jewish Israeli organization dedicated to stamping out Israel’s use of torture) Israel is not the only country mentioned by the UN for human rights abuses, and IIRC the Palestinian National Authority has received a few mentions. Though torture is just the tip of the iceberg (for example today it was revealed that the IDF are still using Palestinians as human shields despite promising not to) of Israeli human rights abuses it is not given more attention that it deserves AND there are many other countries which are given EQUAL attention by the unhchr (the UN body that deals with human rights abuses) AND the General assembly AND the security council. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/111 "2003-01-03T16:46:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Israel’s use of torture is just as bad and uses all or equivalents of the methods (and others) as cited in that report on Palestinian torture I’m sorry but I really have to disagree with this. In terms of the sheer range of punishment, in terms of inventive ways to instill “fear” coupled with “pain”, it looks to me like the Palestinians have it in the bag. **Palestinians: Physical tortures:** Beatings Being made to stand or sit up in painful positions for long periods Burning with cigarettes Suspension by the wrists, with feet barely touching the floor Being whipped with electrical wire Being forced to stand on sharp objects **Psychological tortures:** Exposure alternately to extremes of hot and cold. Sleep deprivation Verbal, sexual and psychological abuse. Threats of death or injury, including rape **Israelis: Physical tortures:** Beatings Being made to stand or sit up in painful positions for long periods Burning with cigarettes Excessive tightening of handcuffs Violent shaking **Psychological tortures:** Exposure alternately to extremes of hot and cold. Sleep deprivation Verbal, sexual and psychological abuse. Threats against the individual or the individual’s family. Forced to listen to loud, distorted music Solitary confinement Confinement in tiny cubicles Deprivation of food Lack of adequate clothing or hygiene I mean, I’m sorry, but “lack of adequate hygiene” just ain’t in the same league as being flogged on the soles of the feet. And as for the Israeli tortures “occurring with greater frequency”, I’d have to say that from a human rights perspective, being forced to listen to loud, distorted music every day for a week is hardly in the same league as being flogged on the soles of the feet just once. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/112 "2003-01-03T17:38:00Z")
In North Korea, over 1/3 of the population is considered ‘hostile’ by its government, and food, medicine, and essential services are witheld from them. Partially as a result of this, over 1 million people have died from starvation and lack of basic medical care in the last five years. North Korea maintains a widespread series of slave labor camps where hundreds of thousands of undesirables and other prisoners are kept in squalid conditions. The mortality rate is high. Extra-judicial killings in North Korea are common. For example, a while ago a car with two people accidentally made a turn towards Kim Jong-il’s palace. The people in the car realized they made a wrong turn and stopped and turned around. They were chased down by Kim’s security forces and shot and killed on the spot. This has actually happened on several occasions we know about. Russia has committed numerous atrocities against the Chechens, and its prisoners are still treated very poorly. [Cuba](http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-02.htm#P521_65970) engages in torture, internal exile of political undesirables, and child labor. Israel is located in a region with a dozen other countries that ALL have worse human rights records. Torture, oppression of dissent, extra-judicial killings, oppression of women, and other human rights abuses occur in almost the entire Arab world. Sharia law is practices in a number of Muslim countries, and it violates international conventions on the treatment of prisoners. As human rights abusers go, Israel is on par with other western democracies, especially considering the unique circumstances it finds itself in. This is not even in the same LEAGUE as countries like North Korea, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. But Israel is singled out by the U.N. disproportionately because A) its profile is higher, B) The Arab nations vote against it as a bloc, C) Because Israel has been blocked from and therefore has no representation in many U.N. organizations and the Security Council, primarily because the Arab nations in the Asia Regional Group have voted against allowing Israel to join, and D) because there is bias against Israel within the U.N., partly because of the Arab/Muslim vote, and partly because there is still a lot of anti-Israeli sentiment in Europe and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/113 "2003-01-03T18:49:13Z")
And MC you state some things that are just untrue … or as they say in GD - cite please. Or retract them. AI, HRW, and even stoptorture, do not claim that any of the Israeli offenses of shaking, loud music, etc. have been occurring since over the three years ago (since Sept '99). So please document your acusation of “more often.” AI, HRW, and the UN are currently on Israel for excessive use of force and inadequate concern for civilian deaths and injuries, and for the restrictions on freedoms that are consequent to the curfews and travel restrictions that Israel has imposed in a (mostly successful) attempt to reduce terror attacks. Also for things like poorer education funding in Arab districts, etc. Again serious items, but no current claim of routine torture let alone in greater frquency than by the PA. I fail to find any mention on any of those cites of cigarette burns (although I’d be surprised if there was not one or two incidents of particularly vicious Israeli interogaters employing such a tactic, just like you find some bad cops in the US) > [@](#): > > AND there are many other countries which are given EQUAL attention by the unhchr (the UN body that deals with human rights abuses) AND the General assembly AND the security council. Care to name them and provide documentation for that “equal attention” by the UN Human Rights Commission and the GA? (A statement by Anan condemning terrorism does not meet this requirement, BTW) I and others have already provided for you the figure that 26% of the UN Commission on Human Rights condemnations are aimed at Israel alone. The current resolution condemns Israel to the exclusion of mentioning any PA offenses. Which brings us full circle, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/114 "2003-01-04T07:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > The Special Rapporteur (SR) continued to receive information alleging that torture and other ill-treatment was still being carried out by the Israeli security forces and police during interrogation, despite the September 1999 ruling of the Israeli High Court which determined that the systematic use of various interrogation techniques by the authorities was illegal. > > Individual cases that were transmitted to the government concerned the arrest and detention of a number of persons who were subjected to such means and methods of torture and ill-treatment as: being forced into the shabeh position for continuous periods of between 12 and 36 hours; interrogation for uninterrupted periods as long as 36 hours; inserting a stick into the rectum; sexual abuse; sleep deprivation; being kept in solitary confinement; being denied required medical treatment; food deprivation; being denied the use of a toilet; being forced to crouch in a closed-off corner of a cell; being threatened with a knife; being burned with cigarettes; beating; placing a ligature around the neck; **electric shocks** ; \*\*whipping on the feet causing extensive bruising[/B}; The report notes that in some cases, the person detained died in custody. Other cases handled by the SR concerned, for example: an order prohibiting a detainee from meeting with counsel, noting that in one case the order was extended owing to “necessities of interrogation”; incommunicado detention; daily interrogation for eight hours at a time without a break. [http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord2001/vol3/israeltr.htm](http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord2001/vol3/israeltr.htm) From the PCATI 2000 report: > [@](#): > > The report is based on dozens of sworn affidavits of Palestinians who were interrogated following the September 6, 1999 High Court of Justice ruling. The report points to the fact that the high Court did nothing to change judicial and moral concepts by which an interrogator may consider using torture as a legitimate option, and even provided the GSS with a practical means such as sleep prevention and prolonged tying, allowing interrogators to continue to use the violent methods they had used in the past. > > The GSS and those appointed to supervise its actions have not relinquished the belief that the most efficient way of extracting information or a confession from a detainee is by causing physical and psychological anguish, exhaustion and humiliation. As a result “the protective wall the High Court built for the purpose of defending the fundamental rights of Palestinian detainees has not proved to be efficient to a sufficient degree”. From the PCATI 2001 report: > [@](#): > > Every month, dozens of Palestinians undergoing interrogation by the GSS are subjected, in some way, to torture and ill treatment. This includes isolation from the outside world and the various methods used in interrogation chambers and solitary confinement. [http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=2](http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=2) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141/115 "2003-01-04T12:51:21Z")
While I commend you in your attempt to partially meet the challange, I must also point out to you what is also contained in that UN report. > [@](#): > > The SR accepted that not all allegations will be well founded but stated that, as long as the government continued to detain persons incommunicado for excessive periods (itself a practice constituting cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment), the burden was on the government to prove that the allegations are untrue. The SR stated that this is a burden that it will not generally be able to discharge convincingly. Oh yes, this is the UN, not AI, not HRW. This is the same people who were happy to believe in an alleged massacre of thousands at Jenin until it was proven otherwise. And who now say that Israel must prove herself innocent and in advance says that she will be unable to convince them. The same ones whose bias is being discussed in this thread. How _interesting_ that they claim that such occurs when AI has said that such has stopped. I am sure that we will both interpret this in our own ways. OTOH stoptortures claims neeed to be given some potential crediabilty. They claim that the situation has improved since Sept '99 but that some physical abuse, and of course isolation of prisoners, still occurs. Then again, _none of your cites support your claims in question_, that such occurs with more frequency in Israel than in the PA, or that many others have been given “equal attention” by the UN. So your claim still goes unsupported. Please remember, I am not trying to state that Israel is without sin. They need to change practices that violate human rights. And they are, without doubt, guilty of doing so. I can support stoptorture for their efforts to hold the Israeli government to appropriate standards of behavior. The issue is the lack of fairness in how Israel is singled out and others’ offenses, especially Arab and PA offenses are ignored by the UN GA and Human Rights Commission. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-palestinian-children-unique/145141.md?page=5)