# What makes someone a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071 "2005-02-20T22:34:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/121 "2005-02-25T15:31:10Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > **Kalhoun** , do you really think there can be no religion without the supernatural? Well, here’s the definition. You tell me: Belief in and reverence for a **supernatural** power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. …and the last definition: \*\*\*A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. \*\* \* I’m very good about flossing…in fact, I’m religious about it. So if you want to continue to discuss religion without including the supernatural, let’s begin with my morning dental routine. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/122 "2005-02-25T15:37:03Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > **Kalhoun** , were Gandhi and MLK gods? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/123 "2005-02-25T15:39:28Z")
**Kalhoun** , “A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader” is fine with me. Keep flossing, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/124 "2005-02-25T15:47:09Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > **Kalhoun** , “A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader” is fine with me. Keep flossing, though. Well, if you don’t believe that “spiritual leader” has anything to do with the supernatural, then there’s really nothing left to talk about. (Hint: Spiritual Leader, in this context, does NOT mean “head cheerleader”, although some spiritual leaders appear to be exactly that). ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/125 "2005-02-26T03:58:50Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > See, that’s where you threw me…when you speak of the spirit world, you’re not saying anything even close to the same thing as when you talk about the spirit in which something was written, which is again, not even close to the same thing as talking about a person’s spirit (and sometimes, you even capitalize Spirit, which gives it a religious connotation). So, these may be the same word, but we’re talking about apples and oranges here. > > I don’t believe in spirits (or _capital “S”_ spirits either). The spirit that I am talking about doesn’t require belief. It is a word akin to attitude or intention. No harm, no foul. Words are a rotten means of communication. Unfortunately, that is what we have. When I capitalize Spirit, I Am usually referring to the Spirit of Good, the Spirit of All, The Spirit of Each. I believe you understand the difference between Knowledge and Belief; that you understand that Knowledge Trumps Belief. Unfortunately, those that do not understand this, tend toward Tyranny. You and I and We All feel the effects of this Spiritual Assault. I detect the effects of this in your Spirit. And yes, I for one consider your Spirit Holy. I for one, consider this assault to be sacrilege. I do not necessarily accept definitions imposed by Tyrants as True. For now I will use my Words as I stated. Let us re-take the Spirit And Share it with All. r~ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/126 "2005-02-26T04:58:12Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > What to call yourselves? Various names already exist- Universalists, Unitarians, Gnostics, New Agers. > > Suggestion for a new name- Agapists? > > Btw, orthodox Nicene-Creed-holding charismatic Christian pharisee here & damn proud of it. Agapist is indeed a beautiful name: One that shares the Love of God Himself. And yet, an Agapist would not be a Christian by your standards. And you are proud of that. You are a step above. That sounds awe-fully High and Mighty. Confess; have you no fear of falling? You might want to reread about Pride. In the Spirit r~ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/127 "2005-02-26T05:06:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > A nice guy > A good person > Good 'ol Joe > The Bomb > > Must everything be affiliated with a religious denomination of some sort? Can’t a person believe that it’s better to be good than bad without attaching a name to it? Do followers of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s teachings call themselves Martinists? Agreed. It’s just difficult to communicate without nouns. I am looking for a communication aid. That is why I suggested us~. Us Good People, ~Joe’s, ~Bombs, etc., ~. r~ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/128 "2005-02-26T12:19:31Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Agapist is indeed a beautiful name: One that shares the Love of God Himself. > > And yet, an Agapist would not be a Christian by your standards. And you are proud of that. You are a step above. > > That sounds awe-fully High and Mighty. Confess; have you no fear of falling? You might want to reread about Pride. > In the Spirit > > r~ You seem to be operating under the assumption that for some of us, “Christian” and “good person” or “good/developed spirit” are one and the same, and that one cannot have a good spirit if one is not a Christian. That is completely and utterly untrue, at least for me. My Wiccan friend would be at best confused and at worst very offended if you told him he was a Christian. Several years ago, he deliberately and consciously rejected the teachings of Jesus Christ, including the notion that a human being named “Jesus”, the son of Joseph the carpenter died and was resurrected to atone for our sins. He is, however, one of the most moral people I know and, in terms of spirit, his is a bright, shining, powerful one which is most assuredly on the side of that which is Right. The core basis for his actions is the Wiccan Rede, most notably “If it harms none, do what you will” and “What you put into the world comes back at you three times over”, aka the Rule of Three. These beliefs differ from the core basis for my faith and actions, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all you soul and with all your mind” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” The end results are similar, but there are key differences between our two sets of beliefs, including our ideas of what “sin” is. I don’t love or respect my friend any less; he has saved my life when I’ve been suicidal and he’s done the same for me. There is very little I wouldn’t do for him in this world or the next. Nevertheless, I would not call him a Christian because that is not the name of the path he has chosen to walk. Let me put it this way. There’s a stretch of Interstate 70 in Pennsylvania where it joins with the Pennsylvania turnpike, I 76. I 70 usually runs further south. You use that same stretch of road whether you’re going from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia or to Washington, D.C. For you to say my friend is a Christian because he appears to be on the same road I’m on is like saying I must be going to Philadelphia. because I happen to be on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. No. I’m going to Washington; it’s just that the road to Washington parallels and joins with the road to Philadelphia for a while. My friend and I both think about what we believe and why. We have chosen our respective religions for what we consider very good reasons, and we have considered the alternatives. We’ve even found a way to Work together within our respective beliefs. Nevertheless, we don’t have the same religion. If I wanted to be a Wiccan, I’m entirely capable of choosing to do so. If he ever chooses to once again explicitly follow the teachings of Jesus and accept Him as Saviour and Lord, he’s also entirely capable of doing so. Indeed, both of us are quite stubborn, so it would be difficult to stop us. Until that time comes, I will say he is not a Christian because he has chosen not to be one. What he is is an one of the best and most honorable men it has been my privilege to know, a spirit of the highest caliber, and a very, very dear and trusted friend. He is also a true brother in spirit to both **Polycarp** and me. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say, but I’m not sure you will. CJ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/129 "2005-03-01T03:49:01Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > You seem to be operating under the assumption that for some of us, “Christian” and “good person” or “good/developed spirit” are one and the same, and that one cannot have a good spirit if one is not a Christian. That is completely and utterly untrue, at least for me. Language is indeed a poor means of communication. My disagreement is in the definition of Christian. Your earlier Quote: > [@](#): > > While calling oneself a Christian certainly does imply one does certain things as a reflection of what one believes, I’ve found that’s not necessarily so. I’ve seen people who proclaim there Christian faith from the rooftops act incredibly cruel, and one of the finest, most Christian-acting people I know is a Wiccan. Even though he was baptized and born again and a devout Christian for many years, I don’t call him a “Christian” because he no longer believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ or follows His teachings. Led me to Believe that your Heart and Spirit recognize the definition of Christian, even as your mind resists. There is no question in my mind witch is Christian. I would say he follows better than most. Any that follow the One Commandment are Christian: [Luke 10:25-28](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=luke%2010&version=31) Love: God, Others, Yourself. ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/130 "2005-03-01T05:42:04Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Any that follow the One Commandment are Christian: > > [Luke 10:25-28](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=luke%2010&version=31) > > Love: God, Others, Yourself. WIsh it were that easy. Apart from the fact that many, perhaps most, Christians don’t agree with that, there’s the issue of what, precisely, constitutes “loving god.” ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/131 "2005-03-01T09:33:20Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Language is indeed a poor means of communication. My disagreement is in the definition of Christian. > > Your earlier Quote: . . . Led me to Believe that your Heart and Spirit recognize the definition of Christian, even as your mind resists. There is no question in my mind witch is Christian. I would say he follows better than most. > > Any that follow the One Commandment are Christian: > > [Luke 10:25-28](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=luke%2010&version=31) > > Love: God, Others, Yourself. Then by the same arguement, I am a Witch. I’m also a trained translator and interpreter. If words can have any meaning one chooses to assign to them, then using them to argue is ridiculous and a waste of gamorgen\*. \*gamorgen: an arbitrary word I have chosen to mean electrons, electrical impulses used to move the muscles in my fingers to type, time, and all other things required for the end result of words appearing on a message board. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/132 "2005-03-01T19:11:20Z")
**Siege** , I share your distaste for a Christian calling anyone who lives a life exemplifying the values of Christianity a Christian. **Jeffh3000** and **Kalhoun** have expressed a sort of inverse of this position, that someone who lives by Christian moral values, and specifically derives these values from the teachings of Jesus, as told in the Bible, is not a Christian unless he believes in God and Jesus’s divinity. What say ye? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/133 "2005-03-01T22:02:36Z")
.05.03.01 > [@andros](#): > > Wish it were that easy. Apart from the fact that many, perhaps most, Christians don’t agree with that, there’s the issue of what, precisely, constitutes “loving god.” I assume you are speaking of the Christians in Name but not in Spirit. Love (def): The willingness to give of oneself for the object of said Love. Do you know a better definition? Yours In the Spirit ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/134 "2005-03-01T22:30:23Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Then by the same arguement, I am a Witch. I’m also a trained translator and interpreter. If words can have any meaning one chooses to assign to them, then using them to argue is ridiculous and a waste of gamorgen\*. > > \*gamorgen: an arbitrary word I have chosen to mean electrons, electrical impulses used to move the muscles in my fingers to type, time, and all other things required for the end result of words appearing on a message board. > > CJ “If it harms none, do what you will” and "What you put into the world comes back at you” is Christian AND Wiccan. Why do you separate when Christ Unites? The people that mistreat their neighbors are NOT Christian. They may call themselves “Christian” but they are NOT. Talk is cheap; it is the Spirit that is Dear. ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/135 "2005-03-01T23:21:41Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > **Siege** , I share your distaste for a Christian calling anyone who lives a life exemplifying the values of Christianity a Christian. **Jeffh3000** and **Kalhoun** have expressed a sort of inverse of this position, that someone who lives by Christian moral values, and specifically derives these values from the teachings of Jesus, as told in the Bible, is not a Christian unless he believes in God and Jesus’s divinity. What say ye? I say a very hearty “Yea!” **rwjefferson** , may I call say you are Japanese? Would it be separating, rather than uniting if I were to say I’m English or American, rather than Japanese? I speak Japanese and have studied and am comfortable in Japanese society; I’ve even lived in Japan. Nevertheless, I am not a citizen of Japan nor is any member of my family and it’s been over a decade since I dealt with Japanese culture. On the other hand, I was born in England and raised in the United States. I’m a citizen of the United States by naturalization and a citizen of England by birth, at least in the eyes of the British government. I’m fully at home in both cultures and consider both native to me. I am Anglo-American, not Japanese in the same sense that I am Christian, not Wiccan, although I will concede the latter is far more a choice. Frankly, as a linguist, I find your willful misuse of the term “Christian” to be offensive and, if you will, un-Christian, un-Wiccan, and un-Doperish, to make up a word while I’m objecting to your using words to mean what you choose them to. True talk is cheap and the spirit unites, but to repeatedly call my Wiccan friend a “Christian” when he has deliberately and consciously chosen _not_ to worship Christ or believe that Christ died for his sins is to cheapen his choice and his decision. This isn’t just my opinion; it’s his. Sir, you’re a kumquat. Whether that’s a compliment or an insult or a neutral statement is something you have no way of knowing if I assign a meaning to that word which it does not normally have. So I see it as being with the way you insist on redefining the word “Christian” to suit your particular likes and dislikes. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/136 "2005-03-01T23:26:40Z")
By the way, **rwjefferson** , would you call \*\*Zev Steinhart \*\* or **Doc Cathode** , Christians? They’re a couple of our more prominent Jewish posters, as well as men whose opinions I’ve come to greatly respect. Would you call \*\*Angua \*\* a Christian, even though she considers herself a Muslim? If you wouldn’t, why on earth do you insist on calling my Wiccan friend something he isn’t? If you would, well, I’ll leave you up to those three posters and any other non-Christians who want to join in. CJ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/137 "2005-03-02T00:09:20Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I assume you are speaking of the Christians in Name but not in Spirit. No, I’m speaking of Christians who believe that Christian==Accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour. > [@](#): > > Love (def): The willingness to give of oneself for the object of said Love. > > Do you know a better definition? For me personally, yes. But in general, that’s fine. However, does “loving God” include following his rules? Include worshipping his son? Include witnessing? Include “reforming” homosexuals? Many Christians believe those are included in “loving God.” Many don’t, or include other things. Who are you to say they are or are not really Christian? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/138 "2005-03-02T05:35:45Z")
**Seige** Jesus was very clear in his teachings: Spirit Trumps Law (even as written in the Bible). It is the Spirit, not the Law that demonstrates who is unclean: who is and is not worthy to be called Christian. I cannot force you to understand this, if you do not, you may either accept it or not. One that uses His Name to preach (or do) the opposite of His Spirit cannot be Truth full. And that is clearly not Christian, by definition. No matter what your Books or Conventions say. As I said before, I do not necessarily accept imposed definitions, especially those that contradict the Spirit. Yet I wonder: How is it that a Linguist does not seem to know that words can have multiple definitions? How is it that a Linguist does not seem to know that these same words and meanings and definitions and even spellings are in constant flux, that they are constantly Evolving? Damn Babel! Although it is Clear that my definitions upset your Spirit, it is also Clear that the question is not whether my Definitions occur in your Historical Documents. The question is whether they Sound with the Ring of Truth. If they do, neither Books nor Conventions nor upset Spirits will stop the resonance. If they do not, they will fade. Only Time will Tell. I Am patient. I recognize this is Just my Belief. Yet, I Am still an optimist. May you find your Peace ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/139 "2005-03-02T16:58:39Z")
The problem is this isn’t the meaning of a word shifting over time as it’s used differently by large numbers of the population; it’s _one_ individual _deliberately_ distorting the meaning of a word because he dislikes it. It would be the equivalent of me deciding that the word “kumquat” is unbecoming such a lovely and delicious fruit, therefore I will call it a “star fruit” and insist that everyone else call it a “star fruit” including those who think star fruits taste horrible and kumquats are delicious of vice versa. In the English language as a whole at this time, the word “Christian” means “worshipper of Jesus Christ”, to give the short form. I am not aware of any mass movement to expand the meaning of that word to include people who don’t regard Jesus as the Son of God; indeed, I know some Christians who actively reject using the meaning of that word to include Catholics. Look, earlier this morning, a colleague of mine was doing a job for which a different coworker wrote the specifications. She said it should be printed on one specific type of labels. When he brought the printed labels to her, she said she actually meant a different kind of label, not the one she’d written on the specification, and that he should have been expected to know that. _That_ is what I see you doing when you tell me my Wiccan friend is actually a Christian. Look, to me the terms people use to describe their religions imply different things. For example: [ul][li] **Christian** : Calls what he or she worships in a “church” when speaking English and regards Christmas and Easter as major religious observances.[/li][li] **Jewish** : Calls what he or she worships in a “temple” when speaking English and regards Yom Kippur and Passover as major religious observances.[/li][li] **Muslim** : Calls what he or she worships in a “mosque” when speaking English and regards Ramadan and Eid Al-Fitr as major religious observances.[/li][li] **Wiccan** : Calls what he or she worships in a “circle” when speaking English and regards Samhain and Beltaine as major religious observances.[/ul][/li]While we may all ultimately be worshiping the same Entity, the ways in which we do so and the beliefs which govern those ways are very different indeed. My Wiccan friend does not believe in the Christian concepts of “hell” or “sin”. He is, however, a writer with 70-odd books to his name last time I counted and one thing he and I do agree on is that, while he doesn’t believe in sin as a rule, deliberately distorting, obscuring, and misusing language to suit one’s own ends, however noble, is a major sin. It’s not quite as bad as torturing and murdering babies, but it’s up there! 😉 The reason for this is simple. Language, communication, and understanding is dependent on people agreeing on what words mean. You seem to have the notion some Christians share which means that anyone who is not a Christian is incapable of being a good person and that “good person” and “Christian” are synonymous. I’ve seen that notion used to dismiss all non-Christians as immoral, unworthy people which is another reason why I so strongly reject it. To me, “good person” and “Christian” are no more related than “blonde” and “Christian”. I gather you differ. A few posts ago, I asked you if you would call\*\* Zev Steinhart\*\*, **Doc Cathode** , or \*\*Angua \*\* “Christians”. I really would appreciate a direct answer to that question. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071/140 "2005-03-02T19:33:14Z")
**Siege** , as I’ve said, I’m on your side of this one. When I read the definitions in various dictionaries, however, I do find some that support **rw** ’s position as to usage. My objection to his way of speaking is that it’s rude and disrepectful of others’ beliefs. It’s analogous to telling a black person “that’s real white of you”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-a-christian/291071.md?page=8)