# What makes someone Catholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014 "2002-12-16T04:02:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Trucido](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@Trucido](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trucido)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/1 "2002-12-16T04:02:53Z")
I’m in the middle of an argument with a friend who calls himself a “heretical Catholic.” He maintains several beliefs that I was under the impression were not part of the Catholic dogma, beliefs in fact contrary to that dogma. I was under the impression that in order to be Catholic, one had to believe in the Pope as Christ’s Vicar on Earth, and his technical infallibility. I also thought that the Catholic Church claimed a monopoly on salvation for, if not just the Catholic Church, at least for Christianity. To get to the questions, does a Catholic have to believe in Papal Infallibility? Is a Greek or Russian Orthodox Catholic, as my friend claims? Can one pick and choose parts of Catholicism to believe and still be a Catholic within the church, or could they be excommunicated and thereby damned? In short, is there a specific set of beliefs one must hold within the Catholic hierarchy, as opposed to those just part of general Christianity, necessary for them to be saved? I would like to point out that this argument is strictly over Roman Catholic doctrine, not over the rightness of any belief or any greater religious theme. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/2 "2002-12-16T05:00:16Z")
Digging back into my time in Catholic grade school—which was shortly after the Dark Ages—my recollection is that (Catholic) Baptism is one of the three Sacraments that leave an indelible mark on one’s soul (the others, in case you were wondering, being Confirmation and Holy Orders [Ordination]). By that principle, once you’re in, you’re in to stay. Even an excommunicate is technically still a Catholic, though separated from the Body of Christ. Of course, the thinking may have changed in the years since. If so, I’m sure that someone (such as the redoubtable **tomndebb** ) will be along to set things straight. In any case, there will more than likely be more detail added ere long. ---
**Author:** ![0rbytal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/65b543/32.png) [@0rbytal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0rbytal)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/3 "2002-12-16T06:36:25Z")
As a devout catholic, I shall divulge as much info as possible… [The Apostle’s Creed](http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.apost.proofs.html) gives some founding beliefs of Catholics. To see all of the beliefs a Catholic believes you should read the [Catechism](http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html). To specifically address you questions: > [@](#): > > does a Catholic have to believe in Papal Infallibilty? [yes](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm), if they claim to be Catholic. > [@](#): > > Is a Greek or Russian Orthodox Catholic, as my friend claims [yes](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11329a.htm), but they are not in union with the pope. They hold most (if not all) the same beliefs _except_ that Pope of Rome is the Vicar of Christ. > [@](#): > > Can one pick and choose parts of Catholicism to believe and still be a Catholic within the church, or could they be excommunicated and thereby damned? [no](http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/qa/Answers/ProLife/a000113Anon.html). Someone put it well on the link used ( I hope he doesn;t mind that I quote him here ) > [@](#): > > I’ve come to believe with all my heart that the Catholic Church is in fact the one and only Church that was established by Christ and that the Church continues today to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised that He would be with the Church until the end of time (Mt.28:20) and that the Holy Spirit would constantly guide the Church to the Truth (Jn .16:12-13). That being the case I find that I have to believe everything that the Church teaches and not just everything except that which I don’t understand or agree. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/4 "2002-12-16T14:27:53Z")
The Pope is the head of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. Catholicism, specifically Roman Catholic, requires belief in the infallibility oif the Pope, and accepting and receiving the Seven Sacrements…and this along with the Pope is the great divider for the Roman Catholic Church: I’m gonna try to get all these… 1-7 are in thise order I believe: Baptism Holy Communion Confirmation Reconciliation (forgiveness “confession”) Marriage Sacrement of the Sick Sacrement of Last Rights Pope is head and infallible. Of course, there are numerous other rules and ‘mortal’ sins that would realistically prevent someone from being Roman Catholic, whether the ‘claim’ to be Roman Catholic or not. In fact, most Roman Catholics are NOT Roman Catholics because they break major tennants of the Church, but just ignore the Pope’s rules: birth coontrol…premarital sex…NOT PRACTICING ALL THE SACREMENTS…divorce…and lots of others. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/5 "2002-12-16T14:58:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philster \* > \*\*In fact, most Roman Catholics are NOT Roman Catholics because they break major tennants of the Church, but just ignore the Pope’s rules \*\* Actually, that’s not true. As **Otto** mentioned, if someone is baptized a Catholic, he remains a Catholic, forever. Sin, no matter how mortal, even if it leads to excommunication, doesn’t change the person’s status as Catholic. Actually, what you’re stating seems to be what’s known as the Donatist heresy. The Donatists believed that there were sins that would render past baptism or ordination invalid. They rejected those priests and bishops they saw as “impure” due to past sins, and practised rebaptism of those who had commited mortal sins. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/6 "2002-12-16T14:59:25Z")
Philster, it’s pretty hard to receive both the Sacrament of Matrimony as well as the Sacrament of Holy Orders. You’ve combined “of the Sick” and “Last Rights.” ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/7 "2002-12-16T15:12:50Z")
Munch, no, I did not combine the Sacrement of the Sick AKA “Annointing of Sick” and “Last Rights”, since they are clearly 6 and 7 respectively. They are separate and that is accurate…as they really are separate scarements. Sacrement of Matrimony can be subsituted for Sacrement of Holy Orders, but the Seven Sacraments stand for what they are. Sacrement of Holy orders is not an essential sacrement - look at it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/8 "2002-12-16T15:17:03Z")
Roman Catholics: In reality, divorce = excommunication from the church. I guess technically, you can be Roman Catholic and be ex-communicated, but essentially, your Roman Catholocism is cooked, considering the crux of what Roman Catholicism is all about. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/9 "2002-12-16T15:23:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philster \* > \*\*Munch, no, I did not combine the Sacrement of the Sick AKA “Annointing of Sick” and “Last Rights”, since they are clearly 6 and 7 respectively. They are separate and that is accurate…as they really are separate scarements. > > Sacrement of Matrimony can be subsituted for Sacrement of Holy Orders, but the Seven Sacraments stand for what they are. Sacrement of Holy orders is not an essential sacrement - look at it that way. \*\* “Annointing of the Sick” and “Last Rites” are the same sacrament. It just used to be called “Last Rites”, but inthe '60s, I believe, the name was changed to “The Annointing of the Sick” I don’t know what you mean when you say that Holy Orders isn’t an “essential” sacrament. It’s a valid and neccesary sacrament in the Catholic Church, as it’s the way that the teaching and pastoral authority of the Church is transferred. If you mean that it isn’t essential that an individual Catholic participate in Holy Orders, that’s true, but the same is also true for Matrimony. A Catholic is free to either marry or not, as he or she chooses. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/10 "2002-12-16T15:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*“Annointing of the Sick” and “Last Rites” are the same sacrament. It just used to be called “Last Rites”, but inthe '60s, I believe, the name was changed to “The Annointing of the Sick” > \*\* A google search came up with about a gazillion links of the 7 Sacraments, and most of them labeled this Sacrament as “Extreme Unction.” They also labeled Matrimony and Holy Orders as separate and distinct. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/11 "2002-12-16T15:43:05Z")
Philster: No, no, and, also, no. In the Roman Catholic Church, the seven sacraments are: Baptism Confirmation Holy Eucharist Annointing of the Sick Matrimony Penance Holy Orders There is no requirement for a Roman Catholic to receive all of the sacraments, and, indeed, it’s a rare man that could do so, although it’s certainly possible. Nor does commission of a mortal sin remove Catholicity. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/12 "2002-12-16T15:45:14Z")
The Baltimore Catechism called it ‘Extreme Unction’. The newly-issued _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ calls it ‘Annointing of the Sick’ - and also refers to Penance as ‘Reconciliation’. The change in terminology does not change the number, purpose, of efficacy of the sacraments. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![ASD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@ASD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASD)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/13 "2002-12-16T15:49:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philster \* > \*\*Roman Catholics: In reality, divorce = excommunication from the church. > \*\* Also wrong. Divorce is not the problem. Remarriage is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/14 "2002-12-16T15:51:25Z")
Catholic Theology suggests that there are seven sacraments: Baptism Eucharist Confirmation Penance Marriage Holy Orders Anointing of the Sick As for receiving all seven, a classic example would be a Deacon who could be married and then ordained as deacon. And, of course, a widower experiencing a call to the Priesthood would legitimately have received all seven sacraments. One can be a Catholic in _schism_, i.e., not in communion with the Pope (who, by the way, is only considered to teach infallibly when he speaks intentionally _ex cathedra_ on a topic of faith or morals), and presumably there is a line before which one is a heretical Catholic and beyond which one has exceeded heresy and can no longer be considered a Catholic. It is also important to note that Christian thought speaks of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which many people not members of the RCC accept as the universal mystical body of all believers, including but not limited to those in communion with the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/15 "2002-12-16T15:52:42Z")
I’ll retract. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/16 "2002-12-16T16:00:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **Nor does commission of a mortal sin remove Catholicity.** Thank you for adding to my vocabulary. I was baptized R.C. as an infant and was through most of catechism before mom pulled the family out of the R.C. church. I presume “Caholocity” is an all or nothing property so my becoming a Lutheran has no effect on it. We say the Apolstle’s Creed and Nicene Creed too. ---
**Author:** ![TheLadyLion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d78d45/32.png) [@TheLadyLion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLadyLion)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/17 "2002-12-16T16:09:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ASD \* > \*\*Also wrong. Divorce is not the problem. Remarriage is the problem. \*\* I was taught back in the day (raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools between ages 6 - 21) that divorced Catholics were not permitted to receive communion, but they were not excommunicated. As ASD correctly says, a divorced Catholic who remarries cannot technically marry inside the Catholic Church and may be excommunicated. That marriage will not be recognized by the church. That’s why so many of the Kennedys have had to pay off their archbishop to get their annulments. Not one of them has had appropriate grounds to get annulments, IMHO. But $$$ talks. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/18 "2002-12-16T16:30:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheLadyLion \* > **I was taught back in the day (raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools between ages 6 - 21) that divorced Catholics were not permitted to receive communion, but they were not excommunicated.** Incorrect. In fact, one of the prerequisites to receiving an annulment from the Catholic Church is that the couple shall have already gone through a civil divorce. ---
**Author:** ![TheLadyLion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d78d45/32.png) [@TheLadyLion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLadyLion)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/19 "2002-12-16T16:34:09Z")
There are lots of things that make a person Catholic. The first is being baptized within the Catholic Church. My fiancee (Padeye) and I were just discussing the fact that the Catholic Church has never recognized as legitimate baptism within any other Christian demonination; many other Christian churches, however, accept Catholic baptism as legitimate. The expectation is that the individual will also later complete the requirements to receive the sacraments of Reconciliation (confession), Holy Communion and Confirmation. The other sacraments are not required. If a Catholic gets married, it is expected (s)he will do so within the Catholic Church by a priest. If this person gets married by a judge, a rabbi or a minister of any other Christian faith, the marriage is considered invalid by the Catholic Church. Another expectation is that they have to believe the Pope to be Christ’s Vicar on earth and that he speaks for God when he speaks “ex cathedra” (from the throne) on matters of faith. Catholics are expected to attend Mass at least once a year, and we were taught that it had to be at least Easter service (of course, given that I attended Catholic schools, I went to church 6X per week while I was in elementary school… how’s that for overdosing?). Finally, the Nicene and Apostles’ creeds pretty much spell out what Catholics are expected to believe. Did I miss anything? Has any of this changed in recent years? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014/20 "2002-12-16T16:34:45Z")
TLL, I think that’s a common misperception. I believe it’s the remarried, divorced, non-annulled Catholics that aren’t allowed to receive communion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-someone-catholic/143014.md?page=2)