# What makes the Dem left "far left," "ultra-left," etc.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 25, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051 "2019-04-25T20:11:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/41 "2019-04-26T18:22:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > AOC isn’t being misrepresented - she’s a nutcase, and it shows. I get that her politics aren’t your cup of tea, but in what way is she a “nutcase”? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/42 "2019-04-26T18:26:23Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Not really. The loudest and most active part of the Dems at the moment is the lunatic fringe, like AOC and others of her ilk Do you realize that in most western democracies AOCs positions would be considered an almost centrist position (maybe a bit left of center…certainly not the lunatic fringe)? I submit is it you who is in the lunatic fringe. Republicans have been [moving right since the 70’s](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-republican-party-has-changed-dramatically-since-george-h-w-bush-ran-it/). The proof is in the nutjob we have for president now and that the republican party seems to think he’s just fine. When conservatives decide that [97% of scientists](https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-intermediate.htm) must be in cahoots to make up global warming you need to reconsider just who the lunatics really are. From that perspective waaaaaayyyy over there on the right pretty much anything even remotely near centrist politics seems like the loony left. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/43 "2019-04-26T18:29:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you realize that in most western democracies AOCs positions would be considered an almost centrist position (maybe a bit left of center…certainly not the lunatic fringe)? You do realize I don’t give a flaming fuck? > [@](#): > > I submit is it you who is in the lunatic fringe. Republicans have been [moving right since the 70’s](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-republican-party-has-changed-dramatically-since-george-h-w-bush-ran-it/). The proof is in the nutjob we have for president now and that the republican party seems to think he’s just fine. I’m not a Republican. Haven’t been since Bush the Younger invaded Iraq for no good reason. Maybe you should pay more attention? > [@](#): > > When conservatives decide that [97% of scientists](https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-intermediate.htm) must be in cahoots to make up global warming you need to reconsider just who the lunatics really are. Shave that stupid fucking broad brush down to a more manageable level and we can talk. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/44 "2019-04-26T18:30:35Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > You do realize I don’t give a flaming fuck? Then why did you post about it? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/45 "2019-04-26T18:33:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Then why did you post about it? I posted nothing about other western democracies, because I do not give a flaming fuck about them for purposes of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/46 "2019-04-26T18:34:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Shave that stupid fucking broad brush down to a more manageable level and we can talk. Maybe. Republicans are basing policy on denying global warming. > [@](#): > > When North Carolina got bad news about what its coast could look like thanks to climate change, it chose to ignore it. > > In 2012, the state now in the path of Hurricane Florence reacted to a prediction by its Coastal Resources Commission that sea levels could rise by 39in over the next century by passing a law that banned policies based on such forecasts. > > SOURCE: [North Carolina didn’t like science on sea levels … so passed a law against it](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/12/north-carolina-didnt-like-science-on-sea-levels-so-passed-a-law-against-it) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/47 "2019-04-26T18:35:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > From the “Biden’s In” thread: > > Clearly both of you gentlemen find the “far left” or “ultra left” to be unacceptably far left. > > But you think they’ve gotten big enough to have “taken over” or to potentially “force Biden to shift from the center.” So this isn’t just AOC, Ilhan Omar, and one or two others we’re talking about. > > So who are these people, and what shared policy positions or other shared tendencies make this “far/ultra left” so unacceptable to you folks? Well, there are layers of question here. If you are asking who is left wing in the Democrats, that is fairly easy…they would be the Progressives and Social democratic and democratic socialist wings. Whether they are ‘unacceptable’ or not, is, of course, a matter of political viewpoint. But those groups are certainly left wing when measured against the left/right/center of the US, which, frankly, is the only yardstick we should be using. I know that liberals/progressives on this board love to look at other countries and compare and contrast us to the citizens of those other countries, but where they stand is basically meaningless wrt our political system and process. I seriously wish folks would stop making these comparisons as if they are meaningful, when they aren’t. I mean, several foreign 'dopers posted in this thread…well, do you measure you political system against the US? Is that a meaningful gauge of, well, anything? How about other countries…do you measure your system against Japan? China? Russia? Is it meaningful to do so?? No, of course not. The only folks who matter are your own voting citizens and where THEY stand on the issues. Anyway, in the US, the progressives and socialist wing of the Dems are left wing in comparison to the US center. Liberals are left of center or, maybe center left these days. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/48 "2019-04-26T18:37:14Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I posted nothing about other western democracies, because I do not give a flaming fuck about them for purposes of this discussion. Well, you are calling AOC part of the lunatic fringe. If she is then you must think most western democracies are part of the lunatic fringe too. And I showed you the republican party has been moving consistently to the right. A party that thinks Donald Trump is the best person to be president of the United States. This shows that the probability is the one who is mentally unhinged here is you and not AOC and the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/49 "2019-04-26T18:41:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Republicans are basing policy on denying global warming. What part of “I am not a Republican” are you having difficulty understanding? Also, while the Set of Conservatives and the Set of Republicans overlap, they are not identical. I’ve posted exactly how I voted in the last POTUS election several times. Go look it up, and stop lumping me in with the strawmen you want to fight. Criticizing AOC et al is not the same as offering to defend the GOP or any particular GOP policy. Stop posting about GOP policy to me. I don’t give a flaming fuck about that, either. Won’t be voting for them. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/50 "2019-04-26T18:43:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, you are calling AOC part of the lunatic fringe. If she is then you must think most western democracies are part of the lunatic fringe too. How about you stop wildly attributing ideas you think I must hold to me? I do not "must think’ any goddamn thing. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/51 "2019-04-26T18:48:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’ve posted exactly how I voted in the last POTUS election several times. Go look it up, and stop lumping me in with the strawmen you want to fight. You know you could have just said who you voted for in fewer words than that diatribe right? Googling, “How did Oakminster vote in 2016” doesn’t give me the answer for this. And if you are so conservative that you think AOC is lunatic fringe then I really do not give a flaming fuck what conservative political groups you identify with. You are smack-dab in the loony fringe of conservative politics. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/52 "2019-04-26T18:52:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The far left is just as radical and dangerous as the far right. Imho There’s no serious undercurrent of far left terrorism comparable to that of the far right since at least the 1970s. > [@](#): > > The country needs to be governed by centrists. People that are willing to compromise on some issues and work with the other party. > > That worked for most of the 20th century. There were certainly strong differences of opinion between the partys. Some issues never got resolved. But, a lot of bipartisan legislation did pass. The more I look at it, the more I think the middle of the 20th Century (from say 1930 to 1980) was the exception not the rule in American history. The current era of hyperpartisanship is simply a revival of Gilded Age political polarization, which was similarly characterized by sharp divides often on grounds of “identity politics”. The midcentury system of relative legislative productivity only worked because of the necessities of the Second World War and the Cold War. Even then, this was only accomplished due to the social ferment of the Great Depression era where labour union militancy and Communist/Socialist/Populist (Huey Long) agitation created an opening for something FDR’s New Deal to seem moderate and centrist in comparison. > [@](#): > > It’s hard to define the far left. Certainly a Socialist agenda and the Green movement are part of it. How about social democracy? > [@aceplace57](#): > > Retired Senator Joe Lieberman is trying to mobilize the center. I can only hope his organization No Labels can make a difference. > > [Centrism is on the rise in real America](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/470908002) Joe Lieberman’s vision of centrism is of the same ilk as John McCain’s-endless war punctured with ecstasies of praise for the reactionary Netanyahu government abroad and neoliberal paternalism (violent video games bad, big health insurance companies good) at home. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/53 "2019-04-26T18:59:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You know you could have just said who you voted for in fewer words than that diatribe right? > > Googling, “How did Oakminster vote in 2016” doesn’t give me the answer for this. > > And if you are so conservative that you think AOC is lunatic fringe then I really do not give a flaming fuck what conservative political groups you identify with. You are smack-dab in the loony fringe of conservative politics. The irony of this, especially the last sentence, is really off the charts. 😛 Gawds, if only you guys could hear how you sound sometimes from someone is isn’t in either of your wings… ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/54 "2019-04-26T19:14:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Y You are smack-dab in the loony fringe of conservative politics. Then surely you can easily cite my posts outlining my loony fringe positions? I’m a gun guy, so I’ll give you that one. Got anything else? Oh Hell…that’s probably too difficult for a guy that can’t grock the fact that I’m not a Republican. Here, I’ll lay it out for you in small words… I’m pro choice, pro marriage equality, pro legal weed, pro gun. I’d like lower taxes. I’m pro-ALL the Amendments (except 18, that was a bad idea). Even the inconvenient ones…like 1, 2, 4, 5,6 and sometimes 8. Also big on 14–won a couple of appellate decisions premised, in part, on that one. Which of those positions are loony fringe conservative? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/55 "2019-04-26T19:32:04Z")
In the 50’s and 60’s (and still to some extent even up to today) because the Communist party also supported the civil rights movement, many used the false syllogism that everyone who supported the civil rights movement was a communist. Today, it has become; because **some** of the things (like universal health care, living wage laws, and green policies, etc) that **some** of the current Democrats in govt support are also positions that the far left support, then surely those Democrats are far left. While those of us who are truly on the far left are left shaking our heads. Today’s Democratic party in the US (even including “nutcases” as **Shodan** so tactfully put it) has more in common with the Republicans than they do with anything on the far left. And. . .while reparations and gun confiscation may be extreme positions in Democratic circles, they are _ **not** _ positions of the far left. Fringe left does not equal far left. mc ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/56 "2019-04-26T19:34:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Far left, or ultra-left is anything that is to the political left of **ME** > > So, for example, if I believe that minimum wages should be abolished, healthcare is a commodity best served by a free market, and that being gay is a choice that is designed to weaken and destroy our society… > > Then it logically follows that the far left, radical cray-cray segment are those people who believe in a minimum wage policy, any government involvement in health care, and any gay rights whatsoever. They are far left radical insane people. I disagree and I’m not sure where you get this idea. I can be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage, for example, yet at the same time realize that my position is far to the right of the mainstream. People who want a minimum wage, but bump it for inflation: mainstream. People who want a $15/hour minimum wage: far left. That’s a pretty accurate assessment, no matter my personal position on it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/57 "2019-04-26T19:59:29Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Then surely you can easily cite my posts outlining my loony fringe positions? Sure. In this thread you deemed AOC as part of the loony fringe. I showed most of the world would not consider her on the loony fringe. Therefore it has to be you in the loony fringe so she looks loony to you. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/58 "2019-04-26T20:06:28Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sure. In this thread you deemed AOC as part of the loony fringe. I showed most of the world would not consider her on the loony fringe. Therefore it has to be you in the loony fringe so she looks loony to you. Oh **Whacky** …you’re so cute when you spew nonsense. Fuck the rest of the world. Their politics are utterly irrelevant in a thread about US politics. They do not have the same law or political structure. And only a window licking, mouth breathing, cousin fucking imbecile would equate disdain for AOC to the loony fringe of conservative thought. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/59 "2019-04-26T20:12:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > What part of “I am not a Republican” are you having difficulty understanding? > > Also, while the Set of Conservatives and the Set of Republicans overlap, they are not identical. I’ve posted exactly how I voted in the last POTUS election several times. Go look it up, and stop lumping me in with the strawmen you want to fight. > > Criticizing AOC et al is not the same as offering to defend the GOP or any particular GOP policy. Stop posting about GOP policy to me. I don’t give a flaming fuck about that, either. Won’t be voting for them. Will you be voting effectively to remove them from power? N.B. “Effectively” implies voting for the Democrat in every contested race. If you can’t answer “yes” to that question, then you might as well be a Republican and cop to the irresponsibility of your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051/60 "2019-04-26T20:19:13Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Will you be voting effectively to remove them from power? N.B. “Effectively” implies voting for the Democrat in every contested race. > > If you can’t answer “yes” to that question, then you might as well be a Republican and cop to the irresponsibility of your actions. Bullshit. Do not fucking lecture me about responsibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-dem-left-far-left-ultra-left-etc/833051.md?page=4)