# What makes the US different... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 15, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263 "2019-09-15T13:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/44 "2019-09-20T14:33:12Z")
Similar for Canada - laws are framed in a way that employers can’t play silly bugger tricks, like reducing hours by just a bit, or “contract” employees to avoid benefits. They get prorated based on hours worked. And the laws don’t vary based on size of employer. (“This poor employer only employs 45 people. It’s so small it wouldn’t be fair to imposé Labour laws on it.” No. Employment laws apply regardless of the size of the employer. ) ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/45 "2019-09-20T16:56:00Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And the laws don’t vary based on size of employer. (“This poor employer only employs 45 people. It’s so small it wouldn’t be fair to imposé Labour laws on it.” No. Employment laws apply regardless of the size of the employer. ) I think a certain amount of that is based on underlying cultural reasons as well - for example, if in Canada a person’s job must be held for up to X weeks if the person is out on medical/parental leave no matter how few employees the company has, I assume there must also be a fair number of people who are willing to take a job that may only last up to X weeks. ( Since a larger employer is more able to spread work around than a small one, a smaller one is more likely to need to hire a replacement). There are plenty of jobs in the US where it’s easy to hire a temp - but what do employers in Canada do if 1. The business is small enough that only a single person performs a particular function 2. That function requires more than a couple of weeks of on-the-job training. ( say fabricating orthotics) 3. The business can’t find anyone with the proper training who is willing to take a job that may only last X weeks. Do they just shut production down for a while , or do they not tell potential applicants that the job is being held for someone on leave or what? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/46 "2019-09-21T19:42:57Z")
Fabricating orthotics, and you really really want to be able to go on providing orthotics? Either yes, hire an orthotics tech “for the duration” or subcontract another dentist’s. It’s not as if temps and subcontracting don’t exist in the US… In any country, there are way too many companies where backups are very badly managed: someone is on vacation, medical leave, whatever, there is nobody who can do their job. But most of the issues are due to lack of foresight: it’s not a lack of trainable personnel, but a lack of training, of access or of handover. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/47 "2019-09-21T20:02:09Z")
Yes it’s the “hit by a bus” principle. Any business should have a plan in place for if they lose an employee who plays a key role. That’s not a legal issue but a planning issue. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/48 "2019-09-21T21:38:33Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Fabricating orthotics, and you really really want to be able to go on providing orthotics? Either yes, hire an orthotics tech “for the duration” or subcontract another dentist’s. It’s not as if temps and subcontracting don’t exist in the US… Temps and subcontracting do of course exist in the US - but that doesn’t mean that every position has people who are willing to take a job “for the duration”. And that’s the situation I’m asking about - does the place shut down production “for the duration” or do they not let applicants know that it’s a temporary job? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/49 "2019-09-21T22:03:24Z")
You just advertise for a term position. You have to tell them it’s not an indefinite hire. But once hired, the temp is entitled to the same statutory rights as a permanent position. I’m afraid I don’t understand the point of your questions? Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/50 "2019-09-21T23:19:10Z")
Americans just look down harder on those who don’t put up the appearance of working hard, whereas Europeans acknowledge that people aren’t suited to 40-60 hour weeks, and just flat out acknowledge it. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/51 "2019-09-21T23:34:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > You just advertise for a term position. You have to tell them it’s not an indefinite hire. > > But once hired, the temp is entitled to the same statutory rights as a permanent position. > > I’m afraid I don’t understand the point of your questions? Am I missing something? From my first post > [@](#): > > I think a certain amount of that is based on underlying cultural reasons as well - for example, if in Canada a person’s job must be held for up to X weeks if the person is out on medical/parental leave no matter how few employees the company has, I assume there must also be a fair number of people who are willing to take a job that may only last up to X weeks. and my question was what happens in Canada if there isn’t anyone who is willing to take the job for up to x weeks? It’s all well and good to say that you have to tell people it’s a temporary position - but that doesn’t mean there’s anyone with the proper training who wants to _take_ a temporary position. Maybe that’s what’s different about the US ( maybe in Canada it’s possible to fill _any_ job on a temp basis) , or maybe Canada doesn’t have as many small businesses as the US or perhaps the small businesses aren’t as small - after all, if my hypothetical orthotics company\* had enough business to support two or three technicians, they wouldn’t be in such a pickle if one needed to be out on unexpected leave for a few weeks or months. - It’s only sort of hypothetical - I have a friend who works for a small orthotics company. He’s the only person who makes the orthotics, and they can manage when he’s on vacation or if he’s sick for a couple of weeks by underpromising delivery (for example, they say it takes say 4 weeks but it usually takes 2 unless he’s backlogged due to vacation or illness). But they couldn’t manage without him for 3 or 6 or 9 months, and there’s not enough business to support a second technician ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/52 "2019-09-22T06:50:25Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Temps and subcontracting do of course exist in the US - but that doesn’t mean that every position has people who are willing to take a job “for the duration”. And that’s the situation I’m asking about - does the place shut down production “for the duration” or do they not let applicants know that it’s a temporary job? We’re not understanding each other due to something much more fundamental. You know those “contract” things, which many or according to my sources most Americans do not have in writing? In Spain, the expression for “working under the table” literally means “working without a contract”. The contract says it is “for the duration” and type (the literal translation is “for a project”, that being the origin of this type of contract, but the type indicates if it’s to cover a production peak, maternity leave, medical leave, vacation, a single post or several similar ones at-need…), any position indicates which type of contract is offered because that’s fundamental information. A “help wanted” ad is likely to not indicate salary range being considered, but it will always indicate the type of contract. And there is no need to shut the place down if you can’t find a temp but can find a different company to take up your slack. “Rival” companies subcontract from each other frequently: usually for stuff that’s not SuperMegaConfidential, but if it is, that’s what those clauses about “steal my info and I’ll have a judge stick the belltower into one of your armpits and out the other” are for. Your hypothetical orthotics company subcontracts the nearest orthotics company: the data involved isn’t even company-confidential, it’s patient confidential but you don’t need to give the patients’ names to the subcontractor, only the specs, so confidentiality isn’t breached. A couple of years ago, the factory of the first company to make frozen potato omelettes burnt down. The other factories in the area hired their employees (little devil: hey, they were going to have a production peak anyway!) and, while the first company decided whether to rebuild or not, made part of their production under that brand with that brand’s recipe without charging extra for it (the damaged company paid for the raw materials and work, but no subcontracting fee). I think that “today it’s you who needs help, tomorrow it will be me” attitude would be unthinkable in large parts of the world. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/53 "2019-09-22T10:40:39Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > We’re not understanding each other due to something much more fundamental. You know those “contract” things, which many or according to my sources most Americans do not have in writing? I think you’re right about the “much more fundamental” - because I can’t even imagine this happening in the US : > [@](#): > > A couple of years ago, the factory of the first company to make frozen potato omelettes burnt down. The other factories in the area hired their employees (little devil: hey, they were going to have a production peak anyway!) and, while the first company decided whether to rebuild or not, made part of their production under that brand with that brand’s recipe without charging extra for it (the damaged company paid for the raw materials and work, but no subcontracting fee). I think that “today it’s you who needs help, tomorrow it will be me” attitude would be unthinkable in large parts of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/54 "2019-09-22T12:26:36Z")
I think that in general small and medium (and sometimes, large) businesses in Western Europe tend to still have a “collegiate” or “guild” attitude, not in the sense of blocking outsiders but in that of being perfectly willing to work with as much as against each other. Good employers on both sides of the Atlantic have managers who work with, not just “on” or “over” or “against”, their subordinates, but it may be easier to have this attitude when even the company has it towards their competition. Gaming companies have been surprised to see that the attitude of their EU and NA players were completely different: it’s a whole-society difference. First seen in El Mundo, [here](https://www.tellerreport.com/sports/2019-09-21---the-surprising-statistical-sneak-of-nadal-to-federer--%22rafa-saved-me%22-.BJ-C_PbNwB.html) in translation. Nadal had nothing to lose at that point; he chose to give his friend information that turned out to be key. But that’s because they’re friends as well as rivals; if they had the “snarling dog” attitude that some people associate with competition and competitiveness, such an action would have been unthinkable. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/55 "2019-09-22T18:36:35Z")
Yes, like **Nava** I was initially confused by US Dopers posting about having a “contract”, which I gradually figured out meant that they had defined terms of work, benefits and so on. In our system, everyone has a contract. If it doesn’t address benefits, you get the stat minimums, but the employer and the worker can always negotiate for terms above the stat minimums. As well, the stat minimums cover severance pay automatically, if you’re fired without cause, based on length of service with that employer. So, there’s less need to talk about being “on contract” or not. In fact for us, “being on contract” seems to have the opposite meaning than in the States. I gather that Americans use that to mean that they have more protections than other worker said who didn’t get to negotiate a contract. Here, if you’re “on contract” that usually means a job of limited duration, like filling in for a mat leave, or to cover during an upsurge in work. Contract employees are often “foot in the door” situations. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/56 "2019-09-22T18:41:04Z")
Responding to **Doreen** ’s example, I hate to say it, but that sounds like a business on the edge. If the business depends on one key employee, and it’s not easy to cover if that employee goes down, that business could easily go under. Long term, I would think they either need to increase market share to be able to hire a second key person, or they’re looking at merger or acquisition, or disaster. But that’s not a product of business culture or legal environment, so much as running a business that has a strategic weakness in their current business plan. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/57 "2019-09-22T18:41:15Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > …from Europe? > Here is what I mean; > I see posited from studies here and there often enough that in the US, the culture is one that embraces hard work, more of it and for less compensation. Sorry, but I’ve worked with people from Europe and the USA, and this is just not true. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/58 "2019-09-22T19:03:20Z")
Fair enough, I can’t attest to the factual accuracy of what I’ve read or heard, the stories always seem to be vague about the source of the info (ie “studies done” with out saying what studies done by whom) part of why I started this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/59 "2019-09-22T21:38:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The United States has the highest net migration of any country by far, in spite of our health care, work culture, racism and all the other negatives mentioned. > [List of sovereign states by net migration rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate) > [World Migration Map - Data Visualization by Metrocosm](http://metrocosm.com/global-migration-map.html) > > So to me that implies there is at least a perception of opportunity in the US that doesn’t exist as strongly in other countries. It shouldn’t. Migration rates to the developed world are limited by the receiving nation’s willingness to take migrants, not the desire of the potential migrants to get in. You could easily find a million people a year who’d like to move to New Zealand or Norway. The only reason it doesn’t happen is that countries that size aren’t physically capable of absorbing that number of new residents. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/60 "2019-09-22T23:56:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Responding to **Doreen** ’s example, I hate to say it, but that sounds like a business on the edge. If the business depends on one key employee, and it’s not easy to cover if that employee goes down, that business could easily go under. Long term, I would think they either need to increase market share to be able to hire a second key person, or they’re looking at merger or acquisition, or disaster. > > But that’s not a product of business culture or legal environment, so much as running a business that has a strategic weakness in their current business plan. I disagree - because in the US, that business would not be required to hold the technician’s job for 3 or 6 or 12 months unless they had more than 50 employees within 75 miles. In the actual real-life example I gave, there are fewer than 10 employees - and the company would therefore simply be able to hire a new technician without worrying about trying to find someone willing to take the job temporarily.( and perhaps when hiring a non-temp , it’s worth training someone) Now, you and I may or may not agree on which way is preferable - but business culture and legal environment absolutely play a part . I suspect there are few, if any, of these very small businesses in Canada. There are quite a few in the US - (something like 16% of all employees work at businesses with fewer than 20 employees) , but if I’m correct about Canada, it’s a bit of a chicken or the egg problem - are there few of these “micro-businesses” in Canada _because_ the laws and business culture make it difficult or do the laws and business culture exist because there already were few of these micro-businesses? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/61 "2019-09-23T01:23:20Z")
Small businesses are the major employer in Canada. According to Industry Canada, as of December 2015: • 97.19% of all employer businesses were small businesses, defined as 99 or fewer employees; 1.8% were medium businesses ( 100 to 499 employees); 0.3% were large businesses (500+ employees) • small businesses employed 70.5% of the private labour force; mediums 19.8%; large businesses, 9.7% • small businesses were responsible for 87% of net employment change. So no, I don’t think that Canada’s l’avoir and business culture discourages small businesses. > **[Key Small Business Statistics - June 2016](https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/sme-research-statistics/en/key-small-business-statistics/key-small-business-statistics-june-2016/key-small-business-statistics-june-2016)** > > The June 2016 edition includes data on the number of businesses in Canada, job creation, firm births and deaths, the share of high-growth firms, firm financing, the number of firms that innovate and export, the small businesses contribution to each... ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/62 "2019-09-23T02:32:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Small businesses are the major employer in Canada. According to Industry Canada, as of December 2015: > > • 97.19% of all employer businesses were small businesses, defined as 99 or fewer employees; 1.8% were medium businesses ( 100 to 499 employees); 0.3% were large businesses (500+ employees) > > • small businesses employed 70.5% of the private labour force; mediums 19.8%; large businesses, 9.7% > > • small businesses were responsible for 87% of net employment change. > > So no, I don’t think that Canada’s l’avoir and business culture discourages small businesses. > > [https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/061.nsf/eng/h\_03018.html#toc-01](https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/061.nsf/eng/h_03018.html#toc-01) I found those numbers too - but what I couldn’t find was any information about what I called “very small businesses” or “micro-businesses” , those with 20 or fewer employees. The Canadian numbers all group businesses with 1-99 employees together. There’s a huge difference between a business with 99 employees and one with 10 or 20 - if my friend’s employer was large enough ( and had enough business) to have ten times as many employees ( 99 instead of 8 or 9 ) they wouldn’t have just one person doing his job. There would almost certainly be at least 8. That’s what I suspect is not so common in Canada -businesses with fewer than 20 employees. I could of course be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263/63 "2019-09-23T03:39:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s a legal requirement here, too; the law requires employers to say so to encourage minority applications. It’s not a legal requirement for an employer to advertise that they are an equal opportunity employer on job postings (at least not in all states). The EEOC doesn’t even apply to all employers. According to the [Equal Employment Opportunity Commission](https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/smallbusiness/requirements.cfm), If you have fewer than 20 employees you’re not subject to laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of race, national origin, religion, sex, or disability. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-makes-the-us-different/840263.md?page=4)