# What meaningful difference is there between S&M and domestic abuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862 "2013-09-28T12:13:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/1 "2013-09-28T12:13:35Z")
I put this here instead of GQ because I don’t think there is an objective answer. But posit this scenario: Neighbors in an apartment complex hear screaming and sounds of a fight, police respond and find a couple answer the door with obvious injuries to them both. They explain that as a form of foreplay they enjoy pretending to be abused/abusive spouses(you can have just the wife or husband being beaten if you like). That it is totally consensual and very erotic and enjoyable. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/2 "2013-09-28T12:24:33Z")
I wanted to amend this to say that of course I mean a case of domestic abuse where both partners are complicit in covering it up and do not want legal help. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/3 "2013-09-28T12:25:18Z")
You used the term “consensual.” The key is consent. Just as if it would be stealing if someone took money from my wallet, but my Wife has full access to my bank accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/4 "2013-09-28T12:28:50Z")
The scenario is unlikely. Actual S&M rarely produces “obvious injuries,” unless you mean skin reddened by the flogger or something. And practitioners of such an, erm, _exuberant_ form are probably well aware of how it would look to outsiders, and take care to avoid disturbing people and being interrupted. That aside, the answer is simple: consensuality and mutual enjoyment make _all_ the difference. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/5 "2013-09-28T12:34:32Z")
A friend of mine has had to deal with the police a few times. She prefers extremely physical relationships and seeks out partners with similar preferences. Although happy in an apartment, she purchased a small house just to avoid problems. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/6 "2013-09-28T12:39:44Z")
And in the case of the OP, they’re still disturbing the peace. Friends of mine let a married couple who were friends move into their basement while they (other couple) were renovating their house. Problem is, the other couple’s version of foreplay often involves screaming matches and then make-up sex. Their neighbors called the cops, which solved the volume issue at least. Experienced S&M practitioners either use gags, soundproofing, or move to a more suitable location if need be. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/7 "2013-09-28T12:46:13Z")
There isn’t much difference to the neighbours listening to the noise. Beyond that the answer is consent, obviously. Two drunks fighting in the street, looks like assault. Cops arrive and discover they are best friends just rough housing while drunk. Not a crime. Consent. It makes all the difference. Or are you really asking about domestic abuse where, once the cops show up, both participants claim it was consensual, but there is reason to suspect one is being intimidated into claiming it was not abuse? Around these parts the cops are empowered to take them both in for disturbing the peace after a couple of calls. Once in the system they can be forced into counselling or anger management in lieu of fines and other penalties. This presents a chance to educate the possible ‘victim’, about their rights, and about services available to help them. If you don’t empower police to act, in such cases, in some fashion, you develop a culture where no one bothers to pursue such complaints because once on site the victim will be intimidated into denying any abuse out of fear of the abuser. The victim feels the police cannot help, the neighbours think nothing will come of reporting it. Abuse can thrive under such circumstances. Once you have such a culture it’s pretty hard to turn around, it doesn’t happen over night. Or are you talking about the case where people choose not to report abuse they hear, and the rationalizations they use to excuse themselves, for looking the other way? The ‘well, they do it all the time!’, or, ‘they’re just pushing each others buttons!’, schools of thought perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/8 "2013-09-28T12:50:35Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I wanted to amend this to say that of course I mean a case of domestic abuse where both partners are complicit in covering it up and do not want legal help. I think the key is coercion. When you have a case where a woman is covering up domestic abuse/rejecting legal help because she thinks if she doesn’t play along, she will be hurt worse or killed, her kids will be hurt worse or killed, she will starve on the street, she will be shamed and expelled from her community, she will be defenseless against something even worse, etc, it’s really hard to call that “consensual”. This is in sharp contrast to an enthusiastic participant in a rough physical relationship. It does get a bit murky when the reasons a person covers up abuse/rejects help is because _despite hating every second of it and wanting it to stop_, she thinks she deserves it, thinks it’s the best she can do, thinks it’s an inevitable part of relationships, loves the person and thinks of abuse as something he needs, or feels that maintaining the situation is worth it because of other perceived advantages (ranging from “he’s a good provider to me” to "he’s a great dad and I can put up with this for the kid’s sake). These cases are less clear-cut coercion than “If I don’t tell the cops I fell, he will come back and beat the shit out of me when he gets out of jail”, but they also aren’t anything like “I really enjoy being hurt and actively seek out partners that will hurt me”. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/9 "2013-09-28T12:55:33Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Or are you really asking about domestic abuse where, once the cops show up, both participants claim it was consensual, but there is reason to suspect one is being intimidated into claiming it was not abuse? Around these parts the cops are empowered to take them both in for disturbing the peace after a couple of calls. Once in the system they can be forced into counselling or anger management in lieu of fines and other penalties. This presents a chance to educate the possible ‘victim’, about their rights, and about services available to help them. This right here. There’s no difference between “it was just some intense S&M” and “she ran into the door” in terms of trying to make excuses and get cops to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/10 "2013-09-28T13:10:29Z")
BDSM is about what the sub wants. Even if it’s just a blindfold, it only happens because the sub wants to do it, and stops the instant they want out. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/11 "2013-09-28T14:00:23Z")
Domestic Abuse has no Safe Words ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/12 "2013-09-28T21:23:26Z")
**CalMeacham** : ya beat me to it. (And, oh, it **hurts!** ) A friend has a great t-shirt: “My Safe Word is ‘Ow!’” ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/13 "2013-09-28T22:05:38Z")
There was a woman next door to me with a physically abusive partner. I and several neighbours all called the police at least once but she wouldn’t press charges. On the final occasion, after which she moved out, he was arrested. What started the trouble that night? _ **She** _ blocked his car in so he couldn’t leave. Domestic abuse? It’s bloody complicated and I was so glad she went and didn’t really give a shit where. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/14 "2013-09-28T22:32:45Z")
At least here in the UK, if there are visible injuries (apparently any visible marks can count), then it is still possible to be charged with assault even if the ‘victim’ had happily consented and was opposed to the prosecution. How often it happens though, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/15 "2013-09-30T19:28:48Z")
Consent is certainly the difference, but taking this to its logical extreme, suppose you consent for someone to kill you. You want it, you sign a notarized letter saying it’s what you want, you film yourself stating your permission. Is the person who kills you any less guilty of murder? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/16 "2013-09-30T19:46:46Z")
I had friends years ago (straight couple) who liked to get drunk and box each other. To the casual observer in the days following those episodes it would certainly look like domestic abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/17 "2013-09-30T19:59:02Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Consent is certainly the difference, but taking this to its logical extreme, suppose you consent for someone to kill you. You want it, you sign a notarized letter saying it’s what you want, you film yourself stating your permission. Is the person who kills you any less guilty of murder? I do not have the book to hand but this is answered in The Law’s Strangest Cases. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/18 "2013-09-30T20:22:00Z")
Consent cannot be given to an illegal act. While most S&M is legal, agreeing to be killed is not legal. Click [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes) and read about Armin Meiwes. Warning: TOTAL GROSSOUT. ETA: Dug up a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174724) on the subject. Again, total grossout applies ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/19 "2013-09-30T21:12:13Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Consent is certainly the difference, but taking this to its logical extreme, suppose you consent for someone to kill you. You want it, you sign a notarized letter saying it’s what you want, you film yourself stating your permission. Is the person who kills you any less guilty of murder? Legally, or morally? Voluntary euthanasia is not _morally_ equivalent to murder, no matter what idiotic laws people may pass. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862/20 "2013-09-30T21:22:57Z")
What’s the meaningful difference between taking karate lessons, and getting beat up in the alley behind a bar? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meaningful-difference-is-there-between-s-m-and-domestic-abuse/669862.md?page=2)