# What Meetings Feel Like for Engineers (video) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 6, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508 "2014-04-06T22:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Flywheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Flywheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flywheel)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/21 "2014-04-07T15:27:20Z")
That engineer needs a [bigger spoon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu9nhExp5KI). ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/22 "2014-04-07T16:13:02Z")
I’ve been in that meeting. In fact, I’ve been brought into those meetings by a relatively clued-in manager specifically to end them before they get too out of hand. The key is to make absolutely ruthless use of the idiots’ unwillingness to admit that they don’t understand things. You baffle them, then give them an opening to change the subject to something they think they understand. "The first three lines are easy. If that were all you wanted, we could have a prototype for you in a few weeks. The remaining lines, though–those will require using a dimensional manifold, and those are pretty expensive. You’re all familiar with String Theory, right? Right. Now, fitting the additional lines in the dimensional manifold will be difficult and time-consuming, because the additional dimensions are very small, too small to see, in fact. Fortunately, we can leverage the wrapping properties of the manifold membranes to save some time on the transparent and kitten-shaped lines. I think we can have it ready for deployment in six months. What’s that? It has to launch in two months? Well…I suppose it could be done, but it’ll be tight, and we’ll be looking at some overtime and maybe a contractor or two to meet the schedule. I know some manifold experts who might be available." Then in two months, you give them a foam block with a red cross drawn on one side and a single red line on one adjacent side, and charge them a million bucks for it. (Or, if they have an accountant in the meeting, he chokes when you say “expensive”, and suddenly three lines is enough.) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/23 "2014-04-07T16:18:14Z")
Honestly, if I’d been in that meeting, I’d have thrown her triangle on a sphere and called it a day. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/24 "2014-04-07T17:00:12Z")
I have one-on-one meetings like this when coworkers want me to make a map for them. “On a 11x17 sheet, show from here to here vertical and here to here horizontal.” So I do that and get the following: “Can you show more detail?” Sure, I say. I can zoom in. “But now I’m not seeing the whole area!” Well, I can make the map a 17x22 and show more detail _and_ the whole area. “No! it has to be 11x17! Don’t you know how to make a map?” So I get a reputation for being difficult because I put the laws of physics ahead of their desires. This is particularly troublesome with folks who think that anything is possible if one is demanding enough. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/25 "2014-04-07T17:03:16Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Honestly, if I’d been in that meeting, I’d have thrown her triangle on a sphere and called it a day. Could you make it a kitten? I find it much more gratifying being the idiot asking for impossible shit than the stressed out engineer who has to deliver on the impossible. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/26 "2014-04-07T17:03:18Z")
Trivial stuff to implement. But this will need a comprehensive change management strategy in order to get everyone on board and comfortable with the concept of perpendicular lines. There will need to be some governance established as well. And training. But first and foremost, we’ll need buy-in from c-level leadership and their sponsorship to lock in budgets and ensure successful implementation. Now, who do we contact legal and contacts to streamline staff augmentation? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/27 "2014-04-07T17:20:44Z")
That situation required a different type of engineer. As an Army trained engineer I would use a copious amount of C4 to eliminate any problems. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/28 "2014-04-08T08:38:36Z")
Just show the 7 lines perpindicular crossings in blow ups, and show them in transparent ink at other blowups. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/29 "2014-04-08T11:13:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I find it much more gratifying being the idiot asking for impossible shit than the stressed out engineer who has to deliver on the impossible. I find it much more gratifying to be able to translate between the SME’s who have technical knowledge but can’t communicate with ignorant and/or impractical and/or wishful and/or confused clients, and those clients. If all you do is inwardly snigger or look blank or say no when you are an SME and a dumbass client asks you to produce six perpendicular red lines some of which are transparent and some of which are green, and which incorporate a kitten, you may be an SME for a certain value of the term, but you are as useless as tits on a bull. Sure, the dumbass clients in that clip are dumbasses, but the SME is useless, as are his managers, whose role should be to negotiate between the SME and the clients, a role at which they utterly fail. The clients clearly have some idea of what they want, but they aren’t very clear. Alternatively, or also, they don’t know how to describe what they want, and don’t know whether its possible. A big part of a the role of a good SME is to know what it is about their area of expertise that confuses laypeople, and how to explain it, and what questions to ask, and how to steer clients into workable solutions in their area. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/30 "2014-04-08T13:51:55Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Just show the 7 lines perpindicular crossings in blow ups, > and show them in transparent ink at other blowups. “But…why aren’t they red? And where’s the kitten?” > [@Princhester](#): > > A big part of a the role of a good SME is to know what it is about their area of expertise that confuses laypeople, and how to explain it, and what questions to ask, and how to steer clients into workable solutions in their area. In some cases, clients don’t want “workable solutions”; they want _their_ solution, whether it is practicable or not, and no amount of discussion, explanation, or ‘facts’ will dissuade them that their opinion is the right one. Example: when I worked at a design/analysis outfit, we had a client who came in wanting us to help him develop (CAD models, fab and assembly drawings, structural analysis, et cetera) an aluminum grapple head for a log skidder. His reasoning, which seemed sensible to him (as he knew essentially nothing about design, fabrication, stress analysis, or indeed, the logging equipment industry) because “aluminum is lighter” and that would therefore reduce the weight. That the weight of a grapple head is not some kind of deciding factor or advantage to logging operators did not phase him; he wanted aluminum. That aluminum is more difficult to weld, has a lower strength to weight ratio, has a lower elastic modulus, is far more prone to fatigue and fracture, does not resist wear, et cetera made not difference. “Aluminum is lighter.” So we did it; we designed a grapple head with aluminum structure, and did the analysis to optimize it for minimum weight at the required strength margins. Big surprise, it weighed more than an equivalent steel grapple head, and we predicted that the prongs would show greater wear and require more frequent replacement due to breakage. Client is hopping mad! “Aluminum is lighter!” No, numb nuts, it has lower density than steel, but also lower strength and stiffness for equivalent sections. “You guys don’t know how to engineer your way out of a wet paper bag!” Client refuses to pay, goes to an aluminum forging house which takes a steel grapple head design and renders it in aluminum forgings. I heard later from someone at one of the equipment manufacturers that our client brought them the grapple head for testing (hoping to pitch it as an OEM offering because none of the logging outfits would buy it) and they broke it within a half an hour of light testing of just picking up and dropping logs on bare ground. (In the field log skidders have to drag logs over rough, often stump-filled ground for 10-12 hours a day, so this was not by any means a stressing test.) Some clients are just congenital idiots. They don’t want your expertise; they want to use your expertise to validate their uninformed opinions and are pissed when you actually have ‘facts’ which disagree with that opinion. Unfortunately, they also pay your bills, so sometimes you have to find a middle ground between idiocy and expertise. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/31 "2014-04-08T14:25:14Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Some clients are just congenital idiots. They don’t want your expertise; they want to use your expertise to validate their uninformed opinions and are pissed when you actually have ‘facts’ which disagree with that opinion. Unfortunately, they also pay your bills, so sometimes you have to find a middle ground between idiocy and expertise. If they pay by the hour, just give them what they want! When my Mom was dating my Dad, his Dad was building a custom house. She saw the carpenter build an internal wall, tear it down the next day and build it a few feet over. The following day, he tore it down again and put it back where it was originally. She asked him why. “Because the boss changed the design twice.” “Don’t you get upset with all the wasted work?” “Naah…he’s paying me by the hour.” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/32 "2014-04-08T15:16:52Z")
It’s nit-picking, but I don’t know if I’d ever get another opportunity to tweak a correction on a SoaT post: > [@](#): > > That the weight of a grapple head is not some kind of deciding factor or advantage to logging operators did not **phase** him; he wanted aluminum. (Boldinf mine) “faze” > **[Definition of FAZE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faze)** > > to disturb the composure of : disconcert, daunt… See the full definition ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/33 "2014-04-08T15:20:29Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s nit-picking, but I don’t know if I’d ever get another opportunity to tweak a correction on a SoaT post: > > (Boldinf mine) > “faze” > [Faze Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faze) What?!? That doesn’t mean he was shot with a phaser? Isn’t that like Chekov’s gun? ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/34 "2014-04-08T15:33:36Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > In some cases, clients don’t want “workable solutions”; they want _their_ solution, whether it is practicable or not, and no amount of discussion, explanation, or ‘facts’ will dissuade them that their opinion is the right one. Amen. But \*\*Princhester \*\*has point. I’ve learned that the easiest question to start with is, “What problem are you trying to solve?” Sometimes, I have to ask the question four or five times to drill down to the real problem. Quiet often, the real problem looks nothing like the original requirement. Then, somedays, I just don’t feel like fighting the battle and I give them what they ask for. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/35 "2014-04-08T15:42:38Z")
This client didn’t pay at all. I was told that he also sued the OEM for breaking his shitty aluminum grapple head. I’m sure they had video and test data to show they hadn’t abused it (although the normal duty cycle for a grapple head is pretty much abuse by definition. Basically, some people are dumbasses. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/36 "2014-04-08T15:50:54Z")
> [@Tully\_Mars](#): > > I’ve learned that the easiest question to start with is, “What problem are you trying to solve?” Sometimes, I have to ask the question four or five times to drill down to the real problem. Quiet often, the real problem looks nothing like the original requirement. If you can get them to define the problem this way, it certainly helps. We’ve got clients with whom we pretty much have to tell _them_ what they want, if we ever want to get anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/37 "2014-04-08T16:05:11Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > If you can get them to define the problem this way, it certainly helps. We’ve got clients with whom we pretty much have to tell _them_ what they want, if we ever want to get anywhere. When asked what they wanted I’ve had clients say “Well, you know, right?”. I might have known what they needed, but guessing what they wanted was something I didn’t want to venture into. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/38 "2014-04-09T00:15:24Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Basically, some people are dumbasses. Indeed, you can’t help some people as your anecdote shows. However, my post deals with the more common case. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/39 "2014-04-09T02:47:19Z")
> **[Clients From Hell Stories- Funny & True Stories | NotAlwaysRight.com](https://notalwaysright.com/tag/clients-from-hell/)** > > A collection of client horror stories from designers and freelancers on CFH. That meeting was missing a business analyst on the supplier side, and an accountant on the customer side. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/40 "2014-04-09T10:39:14Z")
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