# What Meetings Feel Like for Engineers (video) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 6, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508 "2014-04-06T22:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/41 "2014-04-09T10:47:10Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > [Counterpoint](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu9nhExp5KI) You know how the guy in your linked video at one point comes back with the exact same spoon as has already been presented? Well, you might want to check post #21. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/42 "2014-04-09T11:08:01Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I find it much more gratifying to be able to translate between the SME’s who have technical knowledge but can’t communicate with ignorant and/or impractical and/or wishful and/or confused clients, and those clients. This is one of my dream jobs. /driveby ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/43 "2014-04-09T11:31:06Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > "Client refuses to pay, Do you have legal recourse in a case like this? (Is it just not worth the time?) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/44 "2014-04-09T13:12:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Do you have legal recourse in a case like this? (Is it just not worth the time?) You can sue. An iron-clad contract is needed that clearly specifies how much you will get paid whether or not the client accepts your work. Otherwise you will face a judge and potentially a jury that don’t understand why you can’t draw 7 red lines perpendicular to each other in transparent green ink, in the form of a kitten. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/45 "2014-04-09T13:15:51Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > If you can get them to define the problem this way, it certainly helps. We’ve got clients with whom we pretty much have to tell _them_ what they want, if we ever want to get anywhere. Exactly. In my map example above, I finally got the guy to tell me why he had to have the things he needed and I was able to provide a solution. It was still annoying though since the guy in question still acted like it was my fault that he didn’t know what he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/46 "2014-04-09T15:22:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You can sue. An iron-clad contract is needed that clearly specifies how much you will get paid whether or not the client accepts your work. Otherwise you will face a judge and potentially a jury that don’t understand why you can’t draw 7 red lines perpendicular to each other in transparent green ink, in the form of a kitten. And then once you’ve won a favorable judgment after months of depositions and negotiations and arbitration and whatnot, you have to collect. From some asshole client who moves his base of operations and changes his incorporation every six months to stay ahead of his creditors while pursuing his ill-informed, idiotic “dream” of providing a product that doesn’t work to people who don’t want it. Some people are just dumbasses. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/47 "2014-04-09T16:36:44Z")
Very funny and not far off from reality. People who know very little always seem to think they know more than the expert in the field. I had one woman insist that a new roof for the Consulate in Frankfurt couldn’t possibly cost $100K because she had just roofed her house and it was only $10K. Nothing could convince her otherwise. My boss insisted that we could renovate an entire floor of an embassy in two weeks. No matter how I tried to illustrate that it was a three month job, he could not be swayed. On top of which, he told everyone at the embassy that we would be out of there in two weeks. Lots of pissed off people all along the way. I took over as quality control manager for a large hangar project and was told that it was already three months behind because of a bust in the steel measurements, and the consequent reorder. First meeting with Army Corps of Engineers: so how do you plan to make up the time? Me: ??? ACE: How are you going to make up the three months? Do you have schedule drawn up yet? Me: WTF? ACE: Do you understand the question? Me: I understand the words you’re using, but they don’t make any sense. The steel production went to the back of the line and won’t be here until it’s completed. While there can be some economies, you can’t buy back three months, no matter what you do. ACE: Well, you’ll have to hire on more workers. It went on in that vein for some time and they never did (or refused to) understand that some things just can’t be done. Honest to god, people can be so fucking obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/48 "2014-04-09T16:44:35Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I find it much more gratifying to be able to translate between the SME’s who have technical knowledge but can’t communicate with ignorant and/or impractical and/or wishful and/or confused clients, and those clients. Yea, that sounds nice, but watch out for the [two Bobs](http://youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog): ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/49 "2014-04-09T18:16:20Z")
That video pretty uncannily sums up my professional life. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/50 "2014-04-09T19:38:09Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > “Can we also make the lines parallel and flash in fluorescent orange? That won’t impact delivery will it?” > > Stranger This is a 3rd quarter request - just before release of the beta. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/51 "2014-04-09T19:59:47Z")
[Put down the chocolate-covered banana and step away from the European currency system](http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/put-down-the-chocolate-covered-banana.html). ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/52 "2014-04-09T20:06:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Put down the chocolate-covered banana and step away from the European currency system](http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/put-down-the-chocolate-covered-banana.html). And why, pray tell, did you not bring out this little gem in the “how to have light travel faster than C” thread? ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/53 "2014-04-09T21:54:00Z")
My new favourite saying! Thanks **Chronos**! BTW, the incompetent are fundamentally incapable of knowing that they are incompetent. I proclaim this[Dunning’s Law](http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Incompetent-People-Really-Have-No-Clue-Studies-2783375.php) ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/54 "2014-04-09T22:04:17Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > My new favourite saying! Thanks **Chronos**! > BTW, the incompetent are fundamentally incapable of knowing that they are incompetent. I proclaim this[Dunning’s Law](http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Incompetent-People-Really-Have-No-Clue-Studies-2783375.php) [You’re a little late.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/55 "2014-04-09T22:10:35Z")
Meanwhile, this video has me thinking in two different directions: First, I’m trying to figure out a way to meet the client’s nonsensical requirements, as stated. And second, I’m also trying to figure out what questions I can ask the client to determine their real requirements, without cutting off the conversation. The best I’ve come up with so far is “How would these red lines interface with the rest of your components? I want to make sure my work doesn’t introduce any incompatibilities”. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/56 "2014-04-09T22:15:10Z")
> [@Tully\_Mars](#): > > Amen. > > But \*\*Princhester \*\*has point. I’ve learned that the easiest question to start with is, “What problem are you trying to solve?” Sometimes, I have to ask the question four or five times to drill down to the real problem. Quiet often, the real problem looks nothing like the original requirement. > > Then, somedays, I just don’t feel like fighting the battle and I give them what they ask for. Indeed, I find that clients are frequently unable to separate a requirement from a conclusion. Instead of expressing the requirement, they express whatever conclusion has popped into their heads. They want the team to implement the conclusion, rather than solve for the requirement. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/57 "2014-04-09T22:48:14Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Indeed, I find that clients are frequently unable to separate a requirement from a conclusion. Instead of expressing the requirement, they express whatever conclusion has popped into their heads. They want the team to implement the conclusion, rather than solve for the requirement. Yep, that is a large portion of my job, that I am much better at now that I am older. Once you get the “requirements” that make no sense, you smile, and nod, turn into a cartoon psychologist(“why do you think you need 7 kittenish lines”), delving through BS until you get to the deepest bowels of what is driving the “need”. Then you rebuild the whole damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/58 "2014-04-10T22:30:52Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > [You’re a little late.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) In my defence, I did a quick search and couldn’t find any refeerence to it being formalized. Ignorance Fought, and Thank You! And I was only late by roughly 14 years, so considering I was answering zombie threads earlier this week from the same era I can only conclude that SDMB is causing me some kind of mental temporal disturbance. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/59 "2014-04-11T02:30:48Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I find it much more gratifying to be able to translate between the SME’s who have technical knowledge but can’t communicate with ignorant and/or impractical and/or wishful and/or confused clients, and those clients. > > If all you do is inwardly snigger or look blank or say no when you are an SME and a dumbass client asks you to produce six perpendicular red lines some of which are transparent and some of which are green, and which incorporate a kitten, you may be an SME for a certain value of the term, but you are as useless as tits on a bull. > > Sure, the dumbass clients in that clip are dumbasses, but the SME is useless, as are his managers, whose role should be to negotiate between the SME and the clients, a role at which they utterly fail. > > The clients clearly have some idea of what they want, but they aren’t very clear. Alternatively, or also, they don’t know how to describe what they want, and don’t know whether its possible. > > A big part of a the role of a good SME is to know what it is about their area of expertise that confuses laypeople, and how to explain it, and what questions to ask, and how to steer clients into workable solutions in their area. I agree. This clip is now circulating around my workplace. The engineers and software architects are already devising creative solutions to the client’s problem. So far: \*Accelerating some of the blue lines to red-shift them. \*Drawling the lines in 7-dimensional space. \*Drawing 2 dimensional kittens, such that they appear as lines from certain angles. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508/60 "2014-04-11T05:09:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > \*Drawling the lines in 7-dimensional space. Post [#22](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17265573&postcount=22). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-meetings-feel-like-for-engineers-video/685508.md?page=4)