# What might we learn if we could salvage the Library of Alexandria before it was burned? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660 "2025-04-29T18:36:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/21 "2025-04-30T19:41:21Z")
There are some classical works that are known to be lost because they’re mentioned in works that have survived. I suppose it’s a far-fetched speculation that if only Alexandria hadn’t burned we’d still have those, but here’s Wikipedia’s list anyway: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost\_literary\_work](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_literary_work). I’d like to read some of those and they’re just the ones we know about! Let’s speculate further that the librarians could do some limited time travel, and we might even find some original copies of Shakespeare’s plays that we only see now through the filter of transcriber errors. Sadly, _How to Fire-proof Your Library_ had been checked out and never returned. History turns on these small details. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/22 "2025-04-30T20:43:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, my cite says-_The idea that the temple of Serapis still housed a library in 391 is doubtful;_ So why’d you bring up the temple to Mithra? We KNOW the Serapeum did at one point; the question is whether it still had any substantial library in AD 391. The Mithraem probably never had one. As for your later quotation, [Abd al-Latif](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Latif_al-Baghdadi) wrote his account of the library’s destruction a half-century or so before al-Qifti. There are several individuals known as Yahya al-Nahwi in medieval Arabic manuscripts, but the one more commonly known as John Philoponus certainly had no conversations with Caliph Umar about the Library of Alexandria (or any other topic), for the very good reason that John Philoponus had been dead for about seventy years when Umar’s forces conquered Alexandria. Bar Hebraeus wrote, in his Arabic-language history that was based on his earlier _Chronicum Syriacum_: > One day Yahya said to Amr, “Whatever there is in Alexandria is in your control. As to things that are useful for you we have nothing to do with them, but as to those which you may not need, my request is that you favour us by putting them at our disposal, for we deserve them more than anyone else.” Amr asked him what they were. He said: “They are the books on wisdom and philosophy that are stored in the state library” > Amr replied that he could not decide the matter himself but had to seek the Caliph’s instructions in this regard. Accordingly, he informed the Caliph of the matter and asked for instructions. The Caliph wrote: “If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them.” > After receiving the reply Amr began dismantling the library. At his orders, the books were distributed among the public baths of Alexandria. Thus in a period of complete six months all the books were burnt and destroyed. Believe it, and do not be amazed. The “state library” is clearly not private collections, but the whole anecdote is suspect. Between the accidental burning in 48 BC, the sack of the city in AD 115, the Palmyrene invasion and counterattack in 272-275, the seige of Alexandria in 297, the tsunami in 365, the riots in 391, and the riots in 415, plus the accumulated toll of centuries of neglect, there probably really wasn’t much left by the time the Arabs arrived, even leaving aside the six hundred years before the anecdote surfaces and John Philoponus returning from the grave to have a conversation with the Arab commander. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/23 "2025-04-30T23:04:56Z")
In the Bible, the last verse of the Book of John says this: > **[John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which,...](https://www.bible.com/bible/1/JHN.21.25.KJV)** > > And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. On a lighter note, I once read about someone whose grandfather had a large collection of Sanskrit books, and upon his death decided to donate them to a college in their area that had a Sanskrit scholar. Those books were not placed in the library when the scholar discovered that they were all erotica. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/24 "2025-05-01T01:04:53Z")
I had heard, at various points in my lifetime, that the “recipes” for Damascus steel and Greek fire had been lost in the mists of time. Is that reliable information? And if so, would those likely be recoverable? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/25 "2025-05-01T11:01:01Z")
I understand that they’ve recovered the “recipe” for Damascus steel. There are suggested recipes for Greek Fire (have a look at Adrienne Mayor’s **Greek Fire, Poison Arrows, and Scorpion Bombs** ), but I don’t think we have a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/26 "2025-05-01T14:03:04Z")
The reason we don’t have the recipe for Greek fire is because its the kind of thing you never write down. It’s a super secret formula passed from master to apprentice, and its importance as a state secret makes it even less acceptable to document. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/27 "2025-05-01T20:13:38Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > So why’d you bring up the temple to Mithra? I had read that the Serapeum had been converted to a temple to Mitra. This says it was a pagan temple- > **[Serapeum of Alexandria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum_of_Alexandria)** > > The Serapeum of Alexandria in the Ptolemaic Kingdom was an ancient Greek temple built by Ptolemy III Euergetes (reigned 246–222 BC) and dedicated to Serapis, who was made the protector of Alexandria, Egypt. There are also signs of Harpocrates. It has been referred to as the daughter of the Library of Alexandria. The site has been heavily plundered. > The site is located on a rocky plateau, overlooking land and sea. By all detailed accounts, the Serapeum was the largest and most magnificent of all ... _Several accounts for the context of the destruction of the Serapeum exist. According to church historians [Sozomen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozomen) and [Rufinus of Aquileia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannius_Rufinus), Bishop [Theophilus of Alexandria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Theophilus_I_of_Alexandria) obtained legal authority over one such temple of [Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus), which he intended to convert into a church. During the renovations, the objects of pagan mystery still held within, especially the cultic phalli of Dionysus, were removed and exhibited in a procession of exposure, offense, and ridicule by the Patriarch; this incited crowds of pagans to seek revenge. They killed and wounded many Christians before seizing the Serapeum, still the most imposing of the city’s remaining sanctuaries, and barricading themselves inside, taking captured Christians with them. These sources report that the captives were forced to offer sacrifices and that those who refused were tortured (their shins broken) and ultimately cast into caves that had been built for blood sacrifices. The pagans also plundered the Serapeum.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum_of_Alexandria#cite_note-MacMullen-10)_ > [@slash2k](#): > > The “state library” is clearly not private collections, but the whole anecdote is suspect. Between the accidental burning in 48 BC, the sack of the city in AD 115, the Palmyrene invasion and counterattack in 272-275, the seige of Alexandria in 297, the tsunami in 365, the riots in 391, and the riots in 415, plus the accumulated toll of centuries of neglect, there probably really wasn’t much left by the time the Arabs arrived, True, but perhaps private libraries. However, this also means there was likely no scrolls remaining in AD 391 either. > [@yendis](#): > > The reason we don’t have the recipe for Greek fire is because its the kind of thing you never write down. It’s a super secret formula passed from master to apprentice, and its importance as a state secret makes it even less acceptable to document. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/28 "2025-05-01T21:48:28Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I had heard, at various points in my lifetime, that the “recipes” for Damascus steel and Greek fire had been lost in the mists of time. Is that reliable information? There are different senses in which we might mean “We don’t know how to make Greek fire”. A lot of people think it means “We can’t come up with any way that’s possible”, and that interpretation is wrong. Rather, we can come up with several ways it could be done: We just don’t know which specific one the ancient Greeks used. I think Damascus steel has been figured out, though. That’s a lot easier, since we still have original Damask blades available to study. IIRC, the key was trace amounts of vanadium in the ore used by Damascan swordsmiths: In other words, it wasn’t a secret technique, and they probably didn’t know themselves what made the difference. They didn’t forget how to do it, they just ran out of ore from those specific mines. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2025, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660/29 "2025-05-02T02:43:17Z")
Meanwhile, it’s an open question whether we’ve figured out how to make [tekhelet](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekhelet). [https://www.chabad.org/library/article\_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Tekhelet-The-Mystery-of-the-Long-Lost-Biblical-Blue-Thread.htm](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Tekhelet-The-Mystery-of-the-Long-Lost-Biblical-Blue-Thread.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-might-we-learn-if-we-could-salvage-the-library-of-alexandria-before-it-was-burned/1017660.md?page=1)