# What military tactics are used against armed gunmen firing from buildings full of civilians **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 27, 2017, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370 "2017-12-27T04:49:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/21 "2017-12-28T03:12:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israel has seen some success with [self-propelled automatic anti-aircraft guns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machbet) - basically a gatling gun on an APC. It’s a very accurate weapon that can get a very large number of heavy bullets to a target in a very short time, and has been used to take out whole stories of apartment buildings. The Canadians did that at Ortana in WW2. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/22 "2017-12-28T03:24:11Z")
Not exactly what the OP asked for, but here’s what the Dallas police did in response to a sniper–fitted out a recon robot with a bomb: [http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/12/us/dallas-police-robot-c4-explosives/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/12/us/dallas-police-robot-c4-explosives/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/23 "2017-12-28T06:17:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Canadians did that at Ortana in WW2. Oh, I know that they were used in WW2 - didn’t the Germans have one in the final battle scene in _Saving Private Ryan_? I don’t think anyone else still uses them that way today, though, although I’d be happy to be proven wrong. Another advantage of AA weapons in urban warfare, incidentally, is that they’re basically the only vehicle-mounted guns that can be aimed upward at an angle of more than, say, 30 degrees, which is useful when facing apartment buildings at short range. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/24 "2017-12-28T06:38:09Z")
You might want to watch the Frontline documentary [_Mosul_](http://www.pbs.org/video/mosul-trailer-jotzt3/), which shows how one Iraqi army special forces unit went about the very protracted process of routing ISIS out of that city. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/25 "2017-12-28T14:00:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oh, I know that they were used in WW2 - didn’t the Germans have one in the final battle scene in _Saving Private Ryan_? I don’t think anyone else still uses them that way today, though, although I’d be happy to be proven wrong. > > Another advantage of AA weapons in urban warfare, incidentally, is that they’re basically the only vehicle-mounted guns that can be aimed upward at an angle of more than, say, 30 degrees, which is useful when facing apartment buildings at short range. Yes. I have read accounts from urban battles that AAA ripped buildings load-bearing walls and beams as if they were paper. One of the things that changed when missiles replaced guns, Air Defence could no longer be used in the ground role, whoch earlier had been a regular use of AAA. I do believe some armies employ older ATGMs. The warhead effects are impressive and the rocket motor can start fires everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/26 "2017-12-28T17:35:03Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Hate to break it to ya, but it depends on what News agency happens to be near by. Basically take it out with an airstrike and accept the civ casualties. Complete bullshit answer based on absolute ignorance of the subject and your own personal, emotional bias. I currently spend 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, dealing with the exact issue posed in the OP. Actual specifics of the current ROE are Classified. But I can confidently say that Declan’s answer is incorrect, and that’s a major understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/27 "2017-12-28T17:35:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “You know full well that you are to fight against a cunning, brave, well-armed, and cruel enemy. When you encounter him, know this: no quarter will be given. Prisoners will not be taken. Exercise your arms such that for a thousand years no Chinese will dare to look cross-eyed at a German. Maintain discipline. May God’s blessing be with you, the prayers of an entire nation and my good wishes go with you.” > > That could be read as _The Boxers_ will give no quarter nor take any prisoners, which was true. Oh sure – _but that’s not what he said_. That paragraph is a famous _later_ edit to cover up the embarrassing bloodthirstiness of the Kaiser’s real, original address. Here’s the actual paragraph of what he said to the troops before the Kaiser’s handlers pushed out their “for the record” version: > [@](#): > > Should you encounter the enemy, he will be defeated! No quarter will be given! Prisoners will not be taken! Whoever falls into your hands is forfeited. Just as a thousand years ago the Huns under their King Attila made a name for themselves, one that even today makes them seem mighty in history and legend, may the name German be affirmed by you in such a way in China that no Chinese will ever again dare to look cross-eyed at a German. That’s why it’s called the “Hun speech.” ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370/28 "2017-12-28T17:44:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So what do they do? This thread is getting derailed into a discussion about ‘how serious’ western militaries are about civilian casualties. But since western nations do tend to value civilian casualties, however imperfectly, how do they deal with a situation like this? There is a very specific, factual and codified answer to your question. However, for obvious reasons (see the second half of your post), this information could be used by the enemy. I don’t think there is any releasable information that is specific enough to satisfactorily answer your question. I suspect the information that is available to you, is just going to be about vague stuff like proportionality, etc. It’s not going to satisfy you. I will look, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-are-used-against-armed-gunmen-firing-from-buildings-full-of-civilians/805370.md?page=1)