# What military tactics would've been wiser in Starship Troopers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 28, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926 "2015-10-28T02:48:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/61 "2015-10-30T20:16:05Z")
Actually the tactics reminded me of early WWII Soviet attacks, where they simply sent off unarmed untrained men, told them to run forward and take a weapon off some corpse and start shooing. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/62 "2015-10-30T20:56:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Actually the tactics reminded me of early WWII Soviet attacks, where they simply sent off unarmed untrained men, told them to run forward and take a weapon off some corpse and start shooing. So it didn’t matter if the weapons were loaded? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/63 "2015-11-07T02:57:12Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I realize that for the purposes of discussion we’re supposed to forget about that nasty, awful book and concentrate on a movie that may fall anywhere between completely uninfluenced by the nasty, awful book and being some kind of pantingly faithful interpretation of the nasty, awful book, but… Why is _Starship Troopers_ “nasty, awful”? Certainly it has some controversial elements in its description of the future society but plenty of novels, especially science-fiction have such elements and on the whole it is thoughtfully written incorporating both military action as well as lots of interesting discussions about society, government, and so forth. > [@](#): > > …one of the few things about the book that’s almost beyond debate is that the bugs are supposed to represent communists, and the deep certainty that we could not share the planet with them. It was us square-jawed lovers of freedom, or those twelve-by-twelve marching brainwashed hordes. Erhm no. Undoubtedly Heinlein incorporated some elements of the communist bloc into creating the “Bugs” but no more then say elements of the Nazis were incorporated to create the Galactic Empire in Star Wars. Indeed, throughout the novel the war is not portrayed as some great ideological crusade against the Communists/Bugs but rather over disputed territory and the like that is being conducted on a limited base. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/64 "2015-11-07T23:58:18Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > …one of the few things about the book that’s almost beyond debate is that the bugs are supposed to represent communists, and the deep certainty that we could not share the planet with them. It was us square-jawed lovers of freedom, or those twelve-by-twelve marching brainwashed hordes. Actually I was under the impression that it was an example of the pseudo-Darwinistic idea that shows up in sci-fi every so often that the only relationship intelligent species can have towards one another is of eternal war. _The Killing Star_ would be a more recent example, where aliens exterminate humanity because genocide is the logical first reaction of any intelligent species to meeting another. The idea is that all intelligent species eventually come to this “realization”, and so all species are the genocidal enemies of every other. In some older sci-fi this was taken to the extreme that it was just assumed that an intelligent species would destroy all life except that needed to sustain itself; so basically there’s nothing left but the intelligent species and stuff it grows in vats to make food. Like the Martians in\* The War of the Worlds,\* who long ago destroyed all microbial life on Mars; or the Great Brains in _Last and First Men._ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/65 "2015-11-08T02:47:55Z")
Dude! Welcome back! ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/66 "2015-11-09T01:25:54Z")
My original impression was that the movie was an incoherent mishmash, and obviously incorporated satire, but I was puzzled why anyone would make this movie out of that book. Later news revealed that they didn’t. The original script was an actual original script, called _Bug Hunt on Outpost Nine_. Somebody (producers?) realized there was a similarity to _Starship Troopers_, so they optioned the book and grafted in the name and characters, as well as some plot elements. I have no idea at what point in this process Verhoeven was brought in, but he apparently read two or three chapters of the book before concluding that it was boring, depressing, brutal, and fascist. The entire military enterprise reminded him of Nazis, and the movie he made was about that. I have since learned that Verhoeven doesn’t much like movie audiences, actors, or most other movie people, and his satire was heavy-handed because he was sure no one would get it otherwise. I therefore conclude that the tactics and characters were stupid because he wanted them that way, because he likes making people look stupid. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/67 "2015-11-12T23:36:24Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Don’t forget they had a backup lander and nuclear weapons on their mothership. Fat lot of good that does if the entire crew deploys to the planet. > [@Ethilrist](#): > > I’ve heard the same sentiments expressed about Zack Snyder’s interpretation of Superman in Man of Steel. My wife’s review of Man of Steel: Wife: What are you watching? Me: New Superman film. Wife: OH MY GOD!! WHAT IS HE DOING TO METROPOLIS!?! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/68 "2015-11-13T12:26:08Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > My original impression was that the movie was an incoherent mishmash, and obviously incorporated satire, but I was puzzled why anyone would make this movie out of that book. Later news revealed that they didn’t. > > The original script was an actual original script, called _Bug Hunt on Outpost Nine_. Somebody (producers?) realized there was a similarity to _Starship Troopers_, so they optioned the book and grafted in the name and characters, as well as some plot elements… Yeah, it’s like the way Jeff Vintar’s script about a policeman and a robot set in what’s clearly Asimov’s universe got turned into the movie **I, Robot** , even though the script has nothing to do with Asimov’s book. Or the way Gene L. Coon’s Star Trek teleplay “Arena” got turned into “based on Fredric Brown story”, even though it’s not. In both cases the filmmakers found out about the similarity to the earlier literary work and simply bought the title, apparently hoping to avoid prosecution and to piggyback on established works’ fame. At least when they got the rights to Kit Reed’s _Attack of the Giant Baby_ they didn’t change the movie title from _Honey, I blew up the Kid_. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/69 "2015-11-13T16:46:07Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I have since learned that Verhoeven doesn’t much like movie audiences, actors, or most other movie people, and his satire was heavy-handed because he was sure no one would get it otherwise. I therefore conclude that the tactics and characters were stupid because he wanted them that way, because he likes making people look stupid. Agreed. The soldiers in “Starship Troopers” are incompetent for the exact same reason the strippers aren’t sexy in “Showgirls”. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/70 "2015-11-14T07:06:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Yes. In the movie to become a “citizen” you had to do certain things and one of those was to join the military. > > Only citizens could vote and hold certain jobs as I remember. Possibly even be allowed to have children. > > And what good is a massive military unless they have someone to fight? OTOH they only showed a military which maybe numbered a million or so. What about the other billion of so persons on the earth of military service age? Jesus. None of this is correct. In the book, you had to do a stint of service in some position that was unpleasant. The military was one option, but you could also volunteer for difficult duty testing equipment in harsh conditions and the like. The point was to only allow people to vote who had demonstrated the capacity for putting the needs of the public ahead of their own desires. And no, it wasn’t a ‘militaristic’ society. In fact, Heinlein went to great pains to show that the average citizen disdained the military. And the military itself went out the way to _stop_ you from joining. And they made it easy to quit at any time. The only thing you couldn’t do without citizenship was vote. I have no idea where you got the notion that you couldn’t have children or have certain jobs. Other than not being able to vote, non citizens enjoyed the same rights as everyone else. The society itself was actually more libertarian than anything, and the protagonist’s own family came from a long tradition of being successful in spite of the fact that none of them were citizens. They were proud of that, and it didn’t seem to stop them from becoming powerful or wealthy. As for the military just needing something to fight against… Again, in the book the Earth is peaceful until the bugs attack. I believe that’s the case in the movie as well. The strategy and tactics in the book actually make sense, and Heinlein goes to great lengths to explain why they don’t just nuke the bugs. But then, Heinlein actually knew what he was talking about, while Verhoeven just thought he did. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/71 "2015-11-14T07:22:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually I was under the impression that it was an example of the pseudo-Darwinistic idea that shows up in sci-fi every so often that the only relationship intelligent species can have towards one another is of eternal war. _The Killing Star_ would be a more recent example, where aliens exterminate humanity because genocide is the logical first reaction of any intelligent species to meeting another. That’s not true either. In the book, there is a long description of the tactics against the ‘skinnies’, which were employed not to wipe them out, but to convince them to change sides and become allied with Earth. The bugs were different in that they were so totally alien to the human experience that there was no common ground to even begin a dialog with them. The MI were employed because Earth didn’t want to simply eradicate them, but to understand them so that total war would not be necessary. Verhoeven turned that into Earth trying to find a way to torture the bugs into submission, because Verhoeven is an ass with no respect for anyone else’s work but his own. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/72 "2015-11-14T07:36:13Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Starship Troopers is pretty infamous for the extent to which the director hated the source material, and the movie is intended to be a parody - slash - condemnation of the book. It is extremely clear that nobody involved with the production cared about the actual points the book was trying to make, and as far as I’m concerned it’s dubious as to whether anyone actually read the damned thing. It always amazes me whenever these discussions come up how many people miss the point of the movie. It’s an absolutely wonderful satire, effectively giving turning the good guys into “Nazis in Space.” Everything is incredibly tongue-in-cheek, yet this flies over people’s heads. And then other people say it was _too_ heavy-handed… > [@silenus](#): > > “Satire” after-the-fact, when the movie bombed. It was sold as a straight-forward adaptation of the novel. I WAS THERE when his casting people recruited fans at World-Con for the crowd scene at the ball game in the beginning of the film. They showed test footage of the bugs and assured us that, even though there wasn’t going to be power armor, the movie was going to respect the book and author. > > Lies, every word. Because the movie studio and PR and trailer people _never_ mislead, right? :rolleyes: Verhoeven said [back in 1997](http://www.ew.com/article/1997/11/21/starship-troopers-relys-nazi-imagery) that the movie has lots of purposeful similarities to _Triumph of the Will_. He planned it as a satire all along. I’m also not sure it’s fair to call it a bomb; it ended up making more money (worldwide) than it cost in the end. It was the highest-grossing movie the week it came out. Not bad considering it was released in November and rated R. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926/73 "2015-11-14T23:09:49Z")
Criticizing the tactics in _Starship Troopers_ is supremely missing the point. Hubris is the dominant theme of the movie. Of course the military is terrible. The training is bad, the equipment is bad, the strategy is bad, and high command is utterly incompetent. They don’t have the least bit of information about their enemy and absolutely nobody cares about that, from anyone in the military to anyone back home. It’s time to kick some bug ass and declare mission accomplished. The first invasion is, naturally, a debacle and absolutely nobody appreciates the systemic failures that lead to it. There’s a dramatic sacking at the top and a nonsense speech by the replacement and _nothing actually changes_. That anything winds up ever being militarily successful at all is due to the shadowy psychic SS pulling strings behind the scenes (at huge cost to the rank and file grunts) and the rare actually-competent unit commander getting things done at a local level. The Mobile Infantry in the movie only think they’re heroic badasses, they’re really utterly clueless cannon fodder at the complete mercy of social forces that they don’t even recognize, much less comprehend. Hell, Buenos Aires might have even been an inside job. Psi-ops needed an excuse to get the wave after wave of men that they’d need to capture a brain bug? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-military-tactics-wouldve-been-wiser-in-starship-troopers/735926.md?page=3)