# What More Evidence You Need? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436 "2011-04-06T18:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/1 "2011-04-06T18:46:39Z")
I hereby Pit BIG Government! What more evidence do you need than this self admission of guilt: [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/us/politics/07fiscal.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/us/politics/07fiscal.html) “WASHINGTON — The White House warned on Wednesday that a shutdown of the federal government would threaten the nation’s fragile economic recovery. But negotiations over the budget remained stalled amid increasingly sharp rhetoric from lawmakers in both political parties.” So there you have it. The government is SO big it threatens basic economic stability by virtue of being poised for imminent shutdown. It’s too big to fail! Please add your own cliche’s or observations WRT this vestige of truth I assert. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/2 "2011-04-06T18:52:31Z")
A whole lot of things are “too big to fail”, e.g., the Internet, the power grid, the telephone network, the highway system. That generally means that they are a good thing, not a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/3 "2011-04-06T18:55:49Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > A whole lot of things are “too big to fail”, e.g., the Internet, the power grid, the telephone network, the highway system. Those things don’t constitute singular entities with the capacity to fail altogether. Are you also defending AIG in the original “too big to fail” scenario as being a “good” thing? Bad analogy. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/4 "2011-04-06T18:57:32Z")
So, **Nadir** , from your statements, would it be fair to conclude that you have no interest in our government supporting the armed forces? Because that takes up a pretty big chunk of our budget. To be fair, I could see where you’d be completely in favor of funding the military but might be unhappy about Social Security entitlements or Medicare, which are also big chunks. So, what’s your solution? Millions of retired folks paid into the SS fund and the Medicare fund, and while it is a lopsided deal, they made good on their part of the promise. If we defund those programs, we’re going to have a lot of elderly people dying to treatable illnesses, losing their homes, and possibly having trouble getting food to eat. Do you understand this is one of the many “fragile” parts which require a smoothly operating government to work? Or would you rather the streets be filled with the poor, the sick, the elderly, the mentally ill, the unemployed, and the previously incarcerated? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/5 "2011-04-06T18:58:18Z")
There isn’t necessarily an ideal option. Too Big To Fail might overlap with Small Enough that People Starve in the Streets. In which case we might fail at the same time as we cut our resources beyond the bleeding edge and still have deficits. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/6 "2011-04-06T18:59:41Z")
So if we had a small gov’t that just provided, say, national defense, it’d be OK if that failed? It wouldn’t be detrimental to our economy, people would still invest in our companies even though they could be taken over by some Canadians with slingshots? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/7 "2011-04-06T18:59:59Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Those things don’t constitute singular entities with the capacity to fail altogether. Neither does the U.S. government, in all likelihood. Although if you’d care to argue to the contrary, please do. I could use a laugh. Bad as a shutdown may be, it doesn’t mean that life is going to grind to a halt. The military will still do its thing, the FAA will still keep planes in the air, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/8 "2011-04-06T19:00:18Z")
Not AIG per se, but the financial sector, including banking and insurance, is essential in society. There might have been other techniques to solve the problem, but one way or another the government had to intervene so that people and corporations financially linked to AIG did not collapse as a result of a collapse of AIG. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/9 "2011-04-06T19:01:32Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Please add your own cliche’s or observations WRT this vestige of truth I assert. You are an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/10 "2011-04-06T19:04:05Z")
I have four tires on my car, none more important than the others. The tires don’t even power the car, the engine does that. But if one tire goes flat or blows out, I’m kind of screwed. In other words, the necessity of the government is not directly linked to its size. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/11 "2011-04-06T19:04:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You are an idiot. Quoted for truth. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/12 "2011-04-06T20:01:00Z")
Actually, I suspect Nadir is being factitious. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/13 "2011-04-06T20:01:27Z")
Not responding to any posts that don’t address the issue of the size of government WRT it’s affect on the economy, overall. Pit ME, if you wish to continue the discussion on it’s current course. And I’ll stand vindicated, either way. HA! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/14 "2011-04-06T20:05:24Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Not responding to any posts that don’t address the issue of the size of government WRT it’s affect on the economy, overall. > > Pit ME, if you wish to continue the discussion on it’s current course. > > And I’ll stand vindicated, either way. > > HA! Declaring victory after pratfalling isn’t what most people would call an endearing character trait. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/15 "2011-04-06T20:06:08Z")
I join with Nadir in pitting big government. Our eyes are bigger than our stomach. In particular I pit our huge, bloated military, the source of our budget problems, and the Republicans who did their utmost to create that bloat. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/16 "2011-04-06T20:08:44Z")
Nadir, why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/17 "2011-04-06T20:17:33Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Neither does the U.S. government, in all likelihood. I don’t know. What would happen if enough government workers stopped getting paid, enough government offices/services - even the so-called “non-critical” type closed for long enough? Not so sure it wouldn’t constitute a complete failure of government “as we know it.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/18 "2011-04-06T20:17:34Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Not responding to any posts that don’t address the issue of the size of government WRT it’s affect on the economy, overall. Isn’t your job dependent on taxpayer dollars? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/19 "2011-04-06T20:26:44Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > I don’t know. What would happen if enough government workers stopped getting paid, enough government offices/services - even the so-called “non-critical” type closed for long enough? > > Not so sure it wouldn’t constitute a complete failure of government “as we know it.” There are some [2.7 million federal employees](http://www.numberof.net/number-of-federal-employees-2/). First tell us how many is “enough” to cause a “failure of the government as we know it”, then describe what scenario would cause it to occur. This is highly subjective, but it would at least give us a starting point for discussion. IMHO, most of the scenarios that might bring about such a governmental failure are in the nature of nuclear war and extreme natural disasters, not political wrangling over whether to cut Medicaid or the military. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436/20 "2011-04-06T20:47:56Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > This is highly subjective, but it would at least give us a starting point for discussion. No way to really define that. It hasn’t happened, at least not in any particularly spectacular way. Yet. My whole point is the simple idea that this concept - however you choose to define it, and the political game of chicken that goes along with it - has taken on a life of it’s own by virtue of the story cited in the OP. Big government as a general concept, has given rise to this specter. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-more-evidence-you-need/577436.md?page=2)