# What motivates people to vote other people's rights away **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261 "2009-11-04T05:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/201 "2009-11-05T03:40:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Homosexuals can have and raise children. So your objection is completely spurious and poorly considered. So homosexuals can procreate with same-sex partners? I don’t think it’s hard to understand that the special relationship between man and woman is the natural order that gave us all life and to give it some exalted status is not unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/202 "2009-11-05T03:43:03Z")
> [@Xotan](#): > > So you think that divorce should be absolutely banned, then? No, but I do think it should be much more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/203 "2009-11-05T03:45:33Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > The agenda is very simple, to obtain equal rights for same sex couples as are enjoyed by opposite sex couples. > > Let me explain my point of view in two ways; > > 1. philosophically, I agree that an arrangement that gave same sex couples the exact rights would be acceptable regardless of name. Call it a civil union, domestic partnership, go directly to hell do not collect $200 pairing, etc. If this arrangement were guaranteed to be viewed by all government entities as exactly equal to marriage I would have no issue with it. > > 2. Practically speaking, #1 will never happen. I am already in a domestic partnership that grants me essentially married status, but only within the borders of California. It also has zero recognition from the federal government. The word marriage has legal meaning in all 50 states and at the federal level and as far as I’ve been able to tell, the only chance same sex couples have of obtaining those rights is through marriage. (along with federal DOMA being repealed) > > The above paragraph is why ‘civil unions’ or other arrangements aren’t enough to us, because they do not give us the rights that marriage does. You make a very good point. It is unfortunate that civil unions are not recognized in all states. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/204 "2009-11-05T03:49:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It enhances the meaning of the word. Marriage used to mean “a union of a man and a woman of the same race.” True or false? false. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Was the word marriage damaged by allowing blacks and whites to marry? No, that is a normal relationship. > [@Lobohan](#): > > If your marriage is damaged because society calls a homosexual union marriage, isn’t that a sign that you are defective and prejudiced? No, society has always held the ability to hold prejudice and codify that which is normal. Without such codification, anything could be defined as marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/205 "2009-11-05T03:51:06Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > So homosexuals can procreate with same-sex partners? I don’t think it’s hard to understand that the special relationship between man and woman is the natural order that gave us all life and to give it some exalted status is not unreasonable. How is it made unexalted by allowing homosexuals to partake of the institution? You’ll let the elderly get married. Or a woman with a hysterectomy. Or a man who has through accident lost his testicles. But not homosexuals. That would be gross. That would be a turd floating in your swimming pool. Explain to me again, why in the country club we call marriage you aren’t allowing homosexuals to join? They want membership, why do you say no? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/206 "2009-11-05T03:53:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > false. Really? In the US, prior to _Loving v. Virginia_, marriage was defined (outside of a few exceptions) as possibly consisting of interracial marriages between European-descended and African-descended people? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/207 "2009-11-05T03:55:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > false. Ah, I see the problem. You’re profoundly ignorant. I tell you what, read up on the history of marriage and race in America and get back to us, kay? > [@](#): > > No, that is a normal relationship. Not in the 1950s it wasn’t. That’s when bigoted people ran the show. Like the bigoted people who deny SS couples the right to marry now. > [@](#): > > No, society has always held the ability to hold prejudice and codify that which is normal. Without such codification, anything could be defined as marriage. Ah the slippery slope argument. I can see you have no rational arguments and must devolve into handwaving and childishness. Ooga booga, indeed. Come back and bring an argument that doesn’t involve a man marrying a wheel barrow. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/208 "2009-11-05T04:06:21Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > The act is marriage to a person of the same sex. Both straight and gay people are forbidden from marrying someone of the same sex. Both are free to marry someone of the other sex. Compare this to stating that a person of a certain race CAN marry a person of another sex but not another race. This is discrimination of people as opposed to an act. Garbage. They are exactly the same. Two people want to marry, and bigots want to stop them out of bigotry. That is what this entire dispute is really about, and nothing more. > [@yorick73](#): > > This completely misses the point. Government works to foster the creation of stable relationships and the production of children by encouraging male-female pairing. Government does not single out individuals who cannot reproduce and the overall goal is to encourage stable family units. Garbage again. People who cannot have children can and do get married. Married people can and do have themselves sterilized. And same sex couples can adopt, become pregnant and father children. And those who oppose SSM do their best to eliminate THOSE “stable family units”. This has nothing to do with any concern for children. As far as I am concerned, there is one, and only one reason people oppose SSM. Bigotry. I simply don’t believe people who claim other motives. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/209 "2009-11-05T04:18:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Ah, I see the problem. You’re profoundly ignorant. What kind of response are you looking for here? If you can’t be civil then we’re done. > [@Lobohan](#): > > I tell you what, read up on the history of marriage and race in America and get back to us, kay? Read what I said and stop trying to use out-of-date laws to make your point. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Not in the 1950s it wasn’t. That’s when bigoted people ran the show. Like the bigoted people who deny SS couples the right to marry now. You cannot make the case that homosexuality is normal. It is not. Humans are a heterosexual species. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/210 "2009-11-05T04:22:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You cannot make the case that homosexuality is normal. It is not. Humans are a heterosexual species. Don’t be silly; it’s a natural human variation. It’s just as “normal” as having blue eyes - something else only a minority of people are born with. Not that there’s any good reason we should care if it’s “normal” or not. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/211 "2009-11-05T04:37:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Don’t be silly; it’s a natural human variation. It’s just as “normal” as having blue eyes - something else only a minority of people are born with. You’re equating a normal human trait to one involving abnormal behavior. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/212 "2009-11-05T04:38:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Don’t be silly; it’s a natural human variation. It’s just as “normal” as having blue eyes - something else only a minority of people are born with. Not that there’s any good reason we should care if it’s “normal” or not. this. It is perfectly normal for a percentage of the population just as other variables are. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/213 "2009-11-05T04:39:38Z")
Quoth **Der Trihs** : > [@](#): > > As far as I am concerned, there is one, and only one reason people oppose SSM. Bigotry. I simply don’t believe people who claim other motives. I don’t think that this is quite correct, in that I don’t think that bigotry is one and only one reason. One person might oppose same-sex marriage because he believes that God has set down a law against it, and he doesn’t want to go against what God says, while another might oppose it because he doesn’t believe that homosexuality genuinely exists, and thinks that gays who try to marry are just deluding themselves, while yet another might just think that homosexual sex is gross and not give it any further thought. All three are bigoted, and yet they have three completely different reasons for their bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/214 "2009-11-05T04:41:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re equating a normal human trait to one involving abnormal behavior. Being homosexual is just as normal as having blue eyes, so yes I equate them. Are you going to argue that left handed people shouldn’t be allowed marriage too? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/215 "2009-11-05T04:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re equating a normal human trait to one involving abnormal behavior. One might just as well say that he’s equating the normal human trait of homosexuality with one involving abnormal pigmentation. Homosexuality is not a behavior: A gay person can abstain from sex or have sex with a person of the opposite gender, and a straight person can have sex with someone of the same gender, without changing the fact that those people are gay and straight respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/216 "2009-11-05T04:42:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Der Trihs** :I don’t think that this is quite correct, in that I don’t think that bigotry is one and only one reason. One person might oppose same-sex marriage because he believes that God has set down a law against it, and he doesn’t want to go against what God says, while another might oppose it because he doesn’t believe that homosexuality genuinely exists, and thinks that gays who try to marry are just deluding themselves, while yet another might just think that homosexual sex is gross and not give it any further thought. All three are bigoted, and yet they have three completely different reasons for their bigotry. One thing. Does it matter if your priest tells you to hate blacks or your father does? Both are ways to learn bigotry. Who cares if it’s the result of religious indoctrination or an angry father at the dinner table? The end result is exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/217 "2009-11-05T04:48:18Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > So homosexuals can procreate with same-sex partners? I don’t think it’s hard to understand that the special relationship between man and woman is the natural order that gave us all life and to give it some exalted status is not unreasonable. why yes, we can easily see that anyone willing and able to procreate automatically become superior human beings by virtue of this special ability and the act of parenthood itself. No friend, the physical ability and act does not merit any exalted status and humans have demonstrated that over and over. It is the quality of love and committment that exists within the heart that exalts us. SS couples have this ability in equal measure to straights. Homosexuals can be excellent parents or bad parents the same as straights. The technicality of how they arrive at parenthood is secondary. Do hetero couples who cannot have children deserve to be denied a marriage license? Is their marriage less than sanctified or exhalted because of the inability to bear children? If they adopt or choose some other path to have a child is their love and parenthood in question. These type of arguments have no solid foundation whatever yet they keep being repeated as if they do. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/218 "2009-11-05T04:52:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. They are exactly the same. Two people want to marry, and bigots want to stop them out of bigotry. That is what this entire dispute is really about, and nothing more. No. This is not about two people marrying. It is about two people of the same sex marrying. As I’ve stated straights and gays have the same rights. But, the state does also limit opposite sex marriage. Polygamy is not allowed. Brother and sister cannot marry. Parent and child cannot marry. Are these people being discriminated against? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage again. People who cannot have children can and do get married. Married people can and do have themselves sterilized. And same sex couples can adopt, become pregnant and father children. And those who oppose SSM do their best to eliminate THOSE “stable family units”. This has nothing to do with any concern for children. > > As far as I am concerned, there is one, and only one reason people oppose SSM. Bigotry. I simply don’t believe people who claim other motives. Re-read post #188 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/219 "2009-11-05T04:53:38Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > You don’t read very well. If marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman then any man and any woman can marry…regardless of sexual orientation. But, stating that the male-female union is not permissible due to the race of the participants is discrimination of the people involved. The problem is that **If marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman** is every bit as discriminatory as **if marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman of the same race** when the majority decides to limit the rights of the minority by setting the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/220 "2009-11-05T04:57:03Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > No. This is not about two people marrying. It is about two people of the same sex marrying. As I’ve stated straights and gays have the same rights. But, the state does also limit opposite sex marriage. Polygamy is not allowed. Brother and sister cannot marry. Parent and child cannot marry. Are these people being discriminated against? Parents and children and brothers and sisters are separate issues. Stay on topic. What we are talking about is an of age couple not being able to marry because of bigotry. SS couples do not have the sames rights as an opposite sex couple. Because a heterosexual can marry someone they’re sexually attracted to. A homosexual cannot. I’m surprised that you aren’t able to understand that. Read it a couple more times, maybe it will sink in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261.md?page=12)