# What motivates people to vote other people's rights away **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261 "2009-11-04T05:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/541 "2009-11-10T18:37:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is a separation between church and state on this. > > The pro-SSM crowd is in no way demanding that a given church or mosque or whatever _must_ perform a SSM. It is entirely up to an individual church/whatever to make their own decision on that. If a SS-couple’s church does not perform SSM they can work to change their church’s policy, find another church or go see a judge. > > SSM is all about how the government treats SS-couples to make them on par with hetero-couples in a legal sense and all the benefits and responsibilities that entails. Period. > > Religion has nothing to do with it. > > Indeed it is the separation of church and state that argues most strongly for SSM and to not let religious dogma decide the issue. A compelling argument to be sure. But that doesn’t reduce those who feel otherwise as “homophobes”. (although clearly some are) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/542 "2009-11-10T18:38:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I cannot speak for **villa** but I think the problem is people like you keep saying there are rational reasons to oppose SSM yet provide nothing in the way of actual reasonable arguments you assert exist to back this up. People like me?!? When have I ever said anything about SSM? For all you know I may be for SSM! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/543 "2009-11-10T18:40:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > People like me?!? > > When have I ever said anything about SSM? For all you know I may be for SSM! Yes, people like you. To wit (bolding mine): > [@raindog](#): > > **There are well-reasoned arguments on both sides of this issue.** For those who are against SSM (and ftr, I have never taken that position) there are reasons----for many to be sure----that aren’t borne of an _“unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.”_ (the definition that [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) uses for “homophobia”) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/544 "2009-11-10T18:42:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I cannot speak for **villa** but I think the problem is people like you keep saying there are rational reasons to oppose SSM yet provide nothing in the way of actual reasonable arguments you assert exist to back this up. There is _reasoned_, _rational_ arguments on both sides of this. The fact that you can’t see them (which does not mean you have to agree with them) ------and need to demonize your opponents with labels like “homophobe”-----says more about your blindness than the quality of their argument. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/545 "2009-11-10T18:44:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yes, people like you. > > To wit (bolding mine): Read it again! _“…For those who are against SSM (and ftr, I have never taken that position)…”_ ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/546 "2009-11-10T18:50:17Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > There is _reasoned_, _rational_ arguments on both sides of this. You keep making this assertion. Could you please back it up by pointing out a “reasoned, rational” argument on the anti-SSM side? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/547 "2009-11-10T18:50:22Z")
Amusingly, when I read the thread title I assumed it would be about my right to risk not having health insurance, rather than be compelled by threat of fines and jail time to spend $15,000 per year on it. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/548 "2009-11-10T18:54:39Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > You keep making this assertion. Could you please back it up by pointing out a “reasoned, rational” argument on the anti-SSM side? > > Thanks in advance. I’ll be glad to, as soon as you point out a “reasoned, rational” argument on the anti plural marriage side. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/549 "2009-11-10T18:55:36Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Actually, I do get the point. > > You feel so strongly about this issue that you’re unable to see a differing view in anything but demonic terms. It is a subject I feel strongly on, correct. But no one has given me a rational, reasoned argument against gay marriage. They all devolve down to “gays are icky” (homophobia) or “God doesn’t like it” (not a rational reasoned argument when it comes to the laws of a country with separation of Church and state). The _ **best** _ we have seen so far is “it will affect straight marriage.” But nothing whatsoever about how and why it will do that. That ain’t rational, and it ain’t reasoned. I know you say you aren’t against SSM, but, given that there are all these rational, reasoned arguments against it, can you please link me to one preferably in this thread. It shouldn’t be difficult. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/550 "2009-11-10T18:58:45Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > I’ll be glad to, as soon as you point out a “reasoned, rational” argument on the anti plural marriage side. Been there, done that, multiple times in this very thread. It might not be one you agree with, but I have listed two rational arguments against recognizing plural marriage; the links between plural marriage and abuse of children; and the fact that marriage law, in particular the benefits of marriage, would require fundamental change in order to recognize plural marriage, whereas to recognize SSM all that is required would be changing the word wife to spouse. Now those arguments may not be unnassailable, but they are reasoned and rational. They aren’t based on “polygamy is icky” or “God doesn’t like polygamy.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/551 "2009-11-10T19:02:52Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Read it again! > > _“…For those who are against SSM (and ftr, I have never taken that position)…”_ So? Point is you are asserting a rational argument exists to oppose SSM. Please point it out to us. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/552 "2009-11-10T19:05:25Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > You keep making this assertion. Could you please back it up by pointing out a “reasoned, rational” argument on the anti-SSM side? > > Thanks in advance. Assuming you’re an adult I have to wonder where you have been. In any event, I have no intention of being drawn into the anti-SSM debate. I do know, however, that there are reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people on both sides of this—and both have reasonable arguments. IME, it’s only the most visceral, partisan zealots that are so blind to their opponents that they have no approach but to demonize. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/553 "2009-11-10T19:08:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So? > > Point is you are asserting a rational argument exists to oppose SSM. Please point it out to us. So???!!! You posted that in the whole “people like me” nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![whorfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@whorfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whorfin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/554 "2009-11-10T19:11:22Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > I’ll be glad to, as soon as you point out a “reasoned, rational” argument on the anti plural marriage side. Here’s the thing. The absence of a reasoned argument against plural marriage doesn’t mean the SSM foes win. It means that we should allow both SSM and plural marriage. That just does not affect whether there’s a reasoned argument against same-sex marriage or not. It affects whether there are other limitations to marriage that there isn’t a reasonable argument to support, and that’s it. Hence, I’m going to jump in as well to say that if you have a reasoned argument against same-sex marriage (as your post suggests), please share it. I’ve participated in a bunch of these threads. I’d love to debate an internally consistent, and reasoned argument against same-sex marriage. I haven’t heard one yet. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/555 "2009-11-10T19:11:51Z")
**raindog** , ferchrissakes, what’s with all the tap-dancing. I’ve been trying to follow along with this thread as well as possible. You come with an assertion that there are “reasoned, rational arguments against SSM.” You’ve been asked to explain what one might be and you’re only responses have been, “No, not if you’re going to be mean to me.” So, pretty please, **raindog** , with sugar on top, point to one reasoned, rational argument against SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/556 "2009-11-10T19:12:00Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I do know, however, that there are reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people on both sides of this—and both have reasonable arguments. Such as? Put up or retract your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/557 "2009-11-10T19:12:25Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I do know, however, that there are reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people on both sides of this—and both have reasonable arguments. Either back this up or stop saying it. This is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/558 "2009-11-10T19:16:12Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > I’ll be glad to, as soon as you point out a “reasoned, rational” argument on the anti plural marriage side. Unnecessary, as I’m not the one making claims without a shred of support. Polygamy is a separate issue entirely, and only being used by SSM opponents in hopes of drawing SSM proponents in to a logical contradiction. It’s a red herring, completely irrelevant to this, or any, discussion about SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/559 "2009-11-10T19:16:52Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > So???!!! > > You posted that in the whole “people like me” nonsense. Huh? I pointed out that you asserted there were rational arguments against SSM. “People like you” referred to people who insist there are rational arguments against SSM. You have since repeated there are rational arguments against SSM. What is “nonsense” about what I said? Seriously…where did I misrepresent you? I will also note you have re-asserted there are rational arguments against SSM and in almost the same breath refused to provide any of those arguments. Would you accept that from me in some other discussion? Me asserting something is so, you asking for me to point that thing out and me refusing and just re-asserting it is so? Somehow I doubt it. You’ve been around here long enough to know better…or should…that such a tactic does not fly here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261/560 "2009-11-10T19:23:06Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Assuming you’re an adult I have to wonder where you have been. In any event, I have no intention of being drawn into the anti-SSM debate. > > I do know, however, that there are reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent people on both sides of this—and both have reasonable arguments. > > IME, it’s only the most visceral, partisan zealots that are so blind to their opponents that they have no approach but to demonize. Being able to explain a reasoned argument for something does not mean that you agree with it. I can give arguments for invading Iraq (not involving WMDs) while still being against it. I can understand and provide arguments for all sorts of economic positions, like a flat tax, which I disagree with. So, your being able to give a reasoned position against SSM in no way implies you are against it. So you can stop using that argument. You have claimed that such positions exist - so give one. If no one can give a reasonable argument against something, then we can state pretty confidently that the arguments against it are unreasonable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-motivates-people-to-vote-other-peoples-rights-away/516261.md?page=29)