# What movies or books do you take the "wrong" thing away from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 11, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402 "2010-09-11T14:01:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/121 "2011-06-16T00:39:09Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Yes, that was confirmed when Clarise was killed and flayed at the end, wasn’t it? Why, if she had prevailed and her FBI boss had congratulated her at the end for a job well done, shaking hands with her nearly as if she were a _man_ > . . . why, that would almost be carrying some kind of _message_, now woudn’t it? Kind of like all those tacked on happy Hollywood endings, wasn’t it? Unless one accepts there was an attraction between Clarise and Mr. Boss; then one can tack on the lesson that professional success interferes with a sucessful love life. BTW, I loved that movie. I saw that movie for my first date with my spouse. However, I really did not get it until years later. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/122 "2011-06-16T03:05:40Z")
_American History X_ is loved by many racist skinhead types. It’s easy to see how this movie can come off to some as a pro racist movie disguised as the opposite. I doubt that’s what the makers of the film intended, but the transition of Edward Norton’s character from racist to one who saw the light is weak and contrived. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/123 "2011-06-16T04:16:30Z")
> [@j66](#): > > BTW, I loved that movie. I saw that movie for my first date with my spouse. However, I really did not get it until years later. What you got years later was an inkling of one of the major themes of the movie, but in a pretty distorted form. The fact that Clarise is a woman and she faces an uphill battle being taken seriously by her peers is what the whole movie is _about_. And the fact that only a psycho can see how formidable she is, until she finally proves herself, only demonstrates how wrong society is to perpetuate this kind of sexism. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/124 "2011-06-16T05:14:30Z")
> [@j66](#): > > However, I remember that most of the males survived with their powers intact, and those that didn’t died being all brave or noble or something. Not like the major female characters. As for Mystique, she didn’t murder and torture for decades in the movies. (And Rogue’s character could have been a great way to reach kids about safer sex.) Wow man, we totally watched different movies. But I guess that’s what this whole thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/125 "2011-06-16T06:19:27Z")
> [@j66](#): > > However, I remember that most of the males survived with their powers intact, and those that didn’t died being all brave or noble or something. Not like the major female characters. As for Mystique, she didn’t murder and torture for decades in the movies. (And Rogue’s character could have been a great way to reach kids about safer sex.) > > I would never recommend that movie to girls. It’s just terrible. You’re pretty much factually wrong about this. First of all, the events you mentioned that actually happened all happened in X3, not in any of the other X-men movies. X3 is generally considered to be a shitty movie overall, or at least shitty when compared to the first 2 X-men movies. It’s also shitty compared to the new prequel, but was actually slightly better than X-men: Wolverine. More importantly, you’re mostly wrong about what happened in the film. In the first X-men film the adult X-men consisted of adult male members (teehee) Cyclops, Wolverine, and Prof X, as well as female members Jean Grey and Storm. In the 3rd X-men film, Cyclops is killed (and it’s not noble or cool, it’s off screen, he wasn’t trying to save anyone, and he didn’t even fight back) and Prof X is killed. Wolverine survives. Jean Grey dies in the 3rd film. Storm lives, retains her powers, and becomes the new leader of the X-men. So a higher percentage of the male X-men are killed, and a female is the new leader of the X-men. So yeah, you’re just completely wrong and are projecting your insecurities into the film. I’m not saying there’s no sexism in the world and I’m not saying X3 didn’t suck as a movie. I am saying that there was nothing terribly sexist about X3. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/126 "2011-06-16T07:53:30Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > What you got years later was an inkling of one of the major themes of the movie, but in a pretty distorted form. The fact that Clarise is a woman and she faces an uphill battle being taken seriously by her peers is what the whole movie is _about_. And the fact that only a psycho can see how formidable she is, until she finally proves herself, only demonstrates how wrong society is to perpetuate this kind of sexism. One of the things I didn’t notice until years after I first saw the movie (and I’ve watched it a bunch, it’s one of my favorites) is how Clarise is LOOMED OVER or pseudo-menaced by every male person of authority in the movie. In the first scene, when she’s running the training course, the instructor sent to fetch her hollers her name from behind, coming out of the woods unexpectedly, intruding upon her training in a creepy way (due to the setting more so than his interaction with her, although him watching her run past him as she leaves the training course seems like he’s tracking her). Soon after, in the elevator down to Crawford’s office’s level, the other passengers of the elevator are all men who are significantly taller than her, and who look down on her (literally) either laciviously or dismissively. Crawford himself says her name (in his doorway, to get her attention) in a way that is designed to startle her. There are tons of scenes like this - the scenes with Chilton are especially menacing or dismissive. Watching the movie with the intent of analyzing the male-female interactions really caused me to recognize that in many ways, Clarise is the “lamb” of the title, her discomfort at being on the receiving end of the male intimidation silenced by her uncertainty of how to navigate this male world she’s attempting to enter. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/127 "2011-06-17T00:17:23Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > What you got years later was an inkling of one of the major themes of the movie, but in a pretty distorted form. The fact that Clarise is a woman and she faces an uphill battle being taken seriously by her peers is what the whole movie is _about_. Isn’t that what I said? Oh, I see - I was using Silence of the Lambs as another example of the theme I saw in the third X-Men movie, not saying I took the “wrong” message for it. The reason I missed the theme the first time was because to me, at that time, it would be like making a movie about water being wet. (I also could not see what Lessing was using hair as a metaphor in _The Summer before the Dark_; maybe I am just oblivious to the obvious.) ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/128 "2011-06-17T00:25:25Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Watching the movie with the intent of analyzing the male-female interactions really caused me to recognize that in many ways, Clarise is the “lamb” of the title, her discomfort at being on the receiving end of the male intimidation silenced by her uncertainty of how to navigate this male world she’s attempting to enter. Damn, but you’re good at this. What s/he said. (Want to take on the X-Men movies for me? Just an offer.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/129 "2011-06-17T00:39:03Z")
> [@j66](#): > > (And Rogue’s character could have been a great way to reach kids about safer sex.) Um, how? What message would they take away from the only kind of “safe sex” she could have? “Remember, don’t have sex unless you wear your rubber body stocking and gimp mask!” ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/130 "2011-06-17T00:41:33Z")
> [@j66](#): > > Kind of like all those tacked on happy Hollywood endings, wasn’t it? > > Unless one accepts there was an attraction between Clarise and Mr. Boss; then one can tack on the lesson that professional success interferes with a sucessful love life. > > BTW, I loved that movie. I saw that movie for my first date with my spouse. However, I really did not get it until years later. You still don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/131 "2011-06-17T01:21:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Um, how? What message would they take away from the only kind of “safe sex” she could have? > > “Remember, don’t have sex unless you wear your rubber body stocking and gimp mask!” Remember, there are lots of other ways, other than the obvious exchange of bodily fluids, of being close, expressing love, and getting your rocks off. Does one still get one’s rocks off, or is that passe? I know Rogue’s situation is a bit more extreme, but I’m talking metaphor here. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/132 "2011-06-17T01:36:53Z")
> [@j66](#): > > Remember, there are lots of other ways, other than the obvious exchange of bodily fluids, of being close, expressing love, and getting your rocks off. Not for Rogue. Her skin is, quite literally, toxic to other people. Which makes her giving up her powers at the end of the third movie a victory for her, not a loss. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/133 "2011-06-17T02:04:51Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > But then you get sent to Bruges, and really, who wants to end up in that hell hole? I had never heard of Bruges before that movie, and now would go if I had the chance. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/134 "2011-06-17T02:19:56Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Not for Rogue. Her skin is, quite literally, toxic to other people. Which makes her giving up her powers at the end of the third movie a victory for her, not a loss. We can not keep hijacking this thread, but, though in general I accept your better knowledge of the X-Men mythos, I challenge that Rogue’s skin was toxic, at least in the movies. I thought she sucked people’s power out of them? And either way, her mutation is a perfect metaphor for using barrier birth control, as well as other techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/135 "2011-06-17T02:41:45Z")
> [@j66](#): > > We can not keep hijacking this thread, but, though in general I accept your better knowledge of the X-Men mythos, I challenge that Rogue’s skin was toxic, at least in the movies. I thought she sucked people’s power out of them? Yes. But in terms of the effects on her life “toxic” is as good a term as any. > [@j66](#): > > And either way, her mutation is a perfect metaphor for using barrier birth control, as well as other techniques. Considering that she can’t so much as kiss people on the cheek without draining them, no. “Don’t touch anyone, ever, _especially_ if you love them” isn’t a good lesson to teach people. Not unless you want them to die a virgin in a [full coverage burkha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/136 "2011-06-17T03:10:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes. But in terms of the effects on her life “toxic” is as good a term as any. > > Considering that she can’t so much as kiss people on the cheek without draining them, no. “Don’t touch anyone, ever, _especially_ if you love them” isn’t a good lesson to teach people. Not unless you want them to die a virgin in a [full coverage burkha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg). Nah, I’m not buying that use of toxic, when ‘deadly’ is available. I see your burqa and raise you a [cat suit](http://www.diytrade.com/china/4/products/5439787/Latex_rubber_catsuit_latex_catsuit_club_wear_party_wear.html) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/137 "2011-06-17T04:08:48Z")
> [@j66](#): > > I see your burqa and raise you a [cat suit](http://www.diytrade.com/china/4/products/5439787/Latex_rubber_catsuit_latex_catsuit_club_wear_party_wear.html) The pictures don’t load for me… At any rate, a catsuit leaves the face and hands exposed. And what’s the point of dressing sexy if you can’t ever follow up on it? Rogue dressing sexy only makes sense if she’s a villain or a masochist. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/138 "2011-06-17T06:10:49Z")
> [@Motorgirl](#): > > **The Little Mermaid** - If you want to catch a man, shut the f^\*$ up and just be pretty. The film says this outright: The men up there don’t like a lot of blabber They think a girl who gossips is a bore! Yet on land it’s much prefered for ladies not to say a word And after all dear, what is idle babble for? Come on, they’re not all that impressed with conversation True gentlemen avoid it when they can But they dote and swoon and fawn On a lady who’s withdrawn It’s she who holds her tongue who get’s a man ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/139 "2011-06-17T06:16:36Z")
While I agree that The Little Mermaid has a lot of poor lessons for children somehow I feel I must point out that if Ariel had, in fact, shut the fuck up, she never would have got her man. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402/140 "2011-06-17T06:44:51Z")
I’d except The Little Mermaid as an example of a sexist film. I think the Nostalgia Chick summed it up best with the line “I sold my soul for a vagina and a man I’ve never met.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-movies-or-books-do-you-take-the-wrong-thing-away-from/553402.md?page=8)