What myths do we tell ourselves to keep our sanity

[Killing_Time]

@Mijin

All I’m saying WRT our choices, is that when you make decisions, it’s not that your decision has already been made and any feeling of choice is an illusion. The brain isn’t your puppet-master, you are your brain. And I cannot predict (with certainty) what your next decision will be without simulating your mind and its processes.

But of course your brain is causally linked to the rest of the universe. What else could it be?

A computer makes choices that are not predetermined. The choices are based on user input and programming. I cannot predict with certainty what my computer will do next. It might freeze, it might crash, it might disconnect from the internet - it could even get a virus and begin exhibiting bizarre behavior. So doesn’t a computer have free will by your definition? And then doesn’t ANY machine that has any kind of circuitry, like my washing machine, also have free will?

[Mijin]

@Kobal2

See, guys ? That’s what I was talking about when I said the whole free will shit was gonna take ages back in post #67

Yeah and I kept saying I don’t want to hijack this, and gave very brief responses. But, inevitably, it snowballed.

I’m not running away from monstro’s last response to me. I’d love to respond to it, but I’ll leave it there unless someone opens a thread.

[Biffster]

@Killing_Time

A computer makes choices that are not predetermined. The choices are based on user input and programming. I cannot predict with certainty what my computer will do next. It might freeze, it might crash, it might disconnect from the internet - it could even get a virus and begin exhibiting bizarre behavior. So doesn’t a computer have free will by your definition? And then doesn’t ANY machine that has any kind of circuitry, like my washing machine, also have free will?

If you had a Mac, it for sure wouldn’t get a virus at least.

[Biffster]

@monstro

I don’t want to hijack the thread, so I’ll stop talking about this…right after I respond to Alan Smithee.

Lots of people try meditation, take drugs, and practice CBT, and are still unable to soothe themselves in response to pain. You may try any number of these things and find success, but it’s not because you have consciously willed yourself to respond to them. It’s because you are programmed to respond to them. The same way that some babies are programmed to cry in response to loud music while other babies are programmed to laugh.

Nor did you choose to be the type of person who would try a novel approach. That you were able to come up with a long list of strategies is the result of your educational and cultural background, as well as your memory and cognitive ability. No one chooses how smart they are. And your willingness to experiment is the result of your grit and self-confidence, neither of which can be “willed” either.

Please don’t presume to know what I’ve decided, especially since you don’t seem to grok my argument (hint: it ain’t got nothing to do with the determinism of the universe.)

I would tell you that we have something called “will”. A drive, an impulse, an urge, a compulsion, volition, what have you. I just don’t call it “free”, because that adjective comes with a bunch of implications–like that an individual is free to decide what he wants to do or that he is free to act in a way that is not driven by his internal governor, whatever that may be. I don’t believe either is the case.

Today I took a hike in the woods. Though it seemed like I had no bias in the direction I chose at every fork in the road, I know that my track was predictable enough for any outside observer who had enough information about me. I’m fine with saying I made “decisions” or “choices” because the English vocabulary doesn’t really offer any better, non-crazy alternatives. But I know they weren’t freely made decisions or choices. Just because I don’t see the gun being held to my head doesn’t mean it’s not there.

I can’t see how you could possibly believe this.

I’m not so bothered by those examples. I am more bothered by people who presume to know the state of mind of other people.

“He killed despite knowing that murder is wrong. He had free will. Let’s execute him!”

We give ourselves permission to vilify and punish people all the time because we presume we know they are fully responsible for their actions–that they are free agents. It amazes me how easy it is us for to rag on someone else’s personal failings when we too have those same failings, just manifest in a different way. I think the illusion of free will allows something like this to happen. Because we can’t imagine that we’d ever kill someone, we feel we are in the position to judge the murderer in our midst as an inferior human being. When for all we know, if we had that murder’s same upbringing, life experiences, and mental state, we’d have made the same choice. But you can’t go through life letting everyone off the hook for their personal failures. So we tell ourselves that there’s such a thing as free will so we can sleep peacefully at night.

On judging the murderer: don’t forget context. Though we punish murderers in polite society, we reward them on the battlefield. Context affects everything.

[astorian]

@Killing_Time

That makes no sense. If I decided to allow other people to direct what I do, against my own self-interest, I would be making a choice. Since I do not have free will, I can only do what the algorithms in my brain determine is the best choice at the time.

Let’s say you’re playing a video game. Would you expect the game to let you win every time, since it doesn’t have free will? Of course not - you would expect it to do exactly what it is programmed to do.

Ohhhh… well then the “fundies” are just doing what THEY’RE programmed to do (impose on your “rights”)," and there’s no point arguing with them or opposing them.

Is there?

[Kobal2]

Well, no, there’s no point (besides the entertainment and catharsis).
But no alternative, either. Is there ?

[Enola_Straight]

Points in the timeline AFTER are manufactured from points in the timeline BEFORE.

OR

All points on the timeline…before and after…are set in stone; your future actions are as set in stone as is the past.

Only ONE of the above statements are true…there are no other choices:dubious:

[Killing_Time]

@astorian

Ohhhh… well then the “fundies” are just doing what THEY’RE programmed to do (impose on your “rights”)," and there’s no point arguing with them or opposing them.

Is there?

What is this obsession you have with so-called “fundies”, and why do you keep bringing them up here?

[Urbanredneck]

People with PHd’s after their name can be trusted.

[Biffster]

One myth is that people will get what they deserve; cosmic karma will set things right. Fact is, some people will suffer beyond their fair share, and other people will just get lucky. It does not all balance out, not now, and probably not in any afterlife either.

[Biffster]

@Enola_Straight

Points in the timeline AFTER are manufactured from points in the timeline BEFORE.

OR

All points on the timeline…before and after…are set in stone; your future actions are as set in stone as is the past.

Only ONE of the above statements are true…there are no other choices:dubious:

Reminds me of this fallacy:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

After this, therefore because of this

As though when something bad happens, it’s because if something someone specifically did just prior to the bad thing happening. Could be coincidence, could even be synchronicity (when two events are connected symbolically), but not the same as cause and effect. Example: you step on a spider and the next day it rains.

[Mr.Nylock]

@msmith537

People are still assholes with all that stuff.

I’m an asshole with or without the stuff. But you know, it’s not really whether or not you’re an asshole, it’s what kind asshole you are that’s important IMHO.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Urbanredneck

People with PHd’s after their name can be trusted.

I trust Phd’s for the most part - but doing business with them outside of hiring them for what they do is usually not enjoyable.

[Fear_Itself]

@Ambivalid

Whst doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger.

What doesn’t kill you just brings you one step closer to the inevitable.

[Biffster]

@Fear_Itself

What doesn’t kill you just brings you one step closer to the inevitable.

Shorter of breath, and one day closer to death.

[TreacherousCretin]

@Velocity

This.

“What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” is often wishful thinking by people who’ve never experienced extreme suffering.

What doesn’t kill me makes me whinier.

My entry for Myth We etc…

It Can’t Happen Here.

[panache45]

*Beneath all the craziness and irrationality that most people exhibit . . . is a core of rationality and sanity that cannot be defeated. In the long run, in spite of the odds, sanity will prevail.
*
I have no reason for believing this. But I tell myself it’s true . . . because it MUST be.

[Subterraneanus]

I can fight ignorance by wasting time every day posting on some silly internet message board.

[Biffster]

@Subterraneanus

I can fight ignorance by wasting time every day posting on some silly internet message board.

Truth. Somehow it’ll be better for me and for the whole world if I continue to ignore that big project.

[Sitnam]

You still exist somewhere when you die, probably in a great place with lost loved ones.

People will arrive at the fate they deserve.