# What? No Brittany Maynard thread? (terminal disease, doctor-assisted suicide) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765 "2014-10-19T05:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/201 "2014-11-04T21:02:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Your lot keep insisting that killing herself was the only rational choice because she was in such intense pain and agony that her life was no longer livable. I don’t believe anyone has said that. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/202 "2014-11-04T21:04:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. Can we all just agree that whatever **Smapti** considers morality to be, it is completely orthogonal to what we have, and leave it at that, and stop engaging him on this topic? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/203 "2014-11-04T21:04:22Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > That sounds…sadistic. Agreed. That’s sick. Perhaps \*\*Smapti \*\* is the mentally ill one here. As for Maynard’s trip to the Grand Canyon, it was the last such trip she would be able to take, and it took a toll on her, with increasing seizures, pain, paralysis, etc. She had little to look forward to except more of the same, but worse each time. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/204 "2014-11-04T21:04:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think I could. It would not be an ideal life, but we’ve known locked-in people on this very board in the past who have been capable of pursuing intellectual stimulation and social interaction thanks to modern technology. My hypothetical was not merely being locked in, but being locked in and in constant agony. You can substitute whatever you personally feel is the worst possible existance - the point of the hypothetical is to imagine whatever you view as being the most suffering, least desirable way to live. You could add blindness and deafness to the equation if that helps. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Can we all just agree that whatever **Smapti** considers morality to be, it is completely orthogonal to what we have, and leave it at that, and stop engaging him on this topic? Really doesn’t matter at this point, it’s the Smapti show. But in any case, I doubt you’re going to find anyone else on the boards that’s going to argue on that side anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/205 "2014-11-04T21:06:32Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I don’t believe anyone has said that. Ahem; > [@Eutychus](#): > > No, you’re just … wrong. She gave life all she could and when she knew that there was no more life to be lived she decided to go out on her own terms. > > She lived life until life had nothing more to offer. She went out with a bang. And she only stopped when her body didn’t allow her to actually _live_ anymore. > [@Eutychus](#): > > To what end? So she could die experience horrendous pain? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > You left off “or dying of a painful disease with no hope of recovery” > [@Eutychus](#): > > But you’re extrapolating something that no one is saying. No one is saying that suicide is a preferable option just because you have a tough life and want out. But _in this specific circumstance_, her quality of life pretty much didn’t exist and her chances of recovery were as close to nil as you can get. In that case, accepting death on your own terms rather than choosing a agonizingly painful death looks to me to be the more rational choice. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/206 "2014-11-04T21:09:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Your lot keep insisting that killing herself was the only rational choice because she was in such intense pain and agony that her life was no longer livable. May I suggest you confine your arguments with me to positions I’ve actually stated? I mean, feel free to talk about this with the people actually putting those views forward. It just seems kind of a waste to ask them to me, too. > [@](#): > > In either scenario, you cannot deny that she certainly wasn’t acting like a person in dire pain and out of options. She spent the time between her diagnosis and her death moving her family to another state, jetting around the world, engaing in political activism, and visited the Grand Canyon the week before her suicide (which having done myself while in perfect health is _not_ something I can imagine a severely ill cancer patient doing). And, again; you’re saying that she had a fine, nigh-enviable life to look forward to on the one hand, and a terrible, worst-scenario-you-can-possible-imagine on the other. She picked number two. How is she a coward for rejecting something you’ve gone to great word length about being easy, and choosing to hasten something you consider the worst thing you can imagine? “I really hate spiders. They’re the worst thing possible. Wait, that girl had to choose between having a free hamburger and holding a spider, and picked the spider? What a coward!” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/207 "2014-11-04T21:18:04Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > May I suggest you confine your arguments with me to positions I’ve actually stated? I mean, feel free to talk about this with the people actually putting those views forward. It just seems kind of a waste to ask them to me, too. And, again; you’re saying that she had a fine, nigh-enviable life to look forward to on the one hand, and a terrible, worst-scenario-you-can-possible-imagine on the other. She picked number two. > > How is she a coward for rejecting something you’ve gone to great word length about being easy, and choosing to hasten something you consider the worst thing you can imagine? She gave up what could have remained of her life because she was afraid that it wasn’t always going to be as good as it had been, and she did so in a way that let her completely duck the actual mental and physical experience of dying. That makes her a coward. A coward takes a bunch of pills and dies in their sleep in a numb daze. A brave person faces it head-on and stays lucid and fully aware until the end. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/208 "2014-11-04T21:28:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > She gave up what could have remained of her life because she was afraid that it wasn’t always going to be as good as it had been, and she did so in a way that let her completely duck the actual mental and physical experience of dying. > > That makes her a coward. > > A coward takes a bunch of pills and dies in their sleep in a numb daze. A brave person faces it head-on and stays lucid and fully aware until the end. Alright, let’s check that up against your list of what makes death the worst thing you can conceive of; > [@Smapti](#): > > There is no afterlife. There’s no pearly gates and guys with wings wearing togas and strumming on harps all day. > > There’s no pit of fire. > > There’s no lurking around in abandoned houses and scaring kids who go in there on a dare. > > There’s not even eternal darkness and loneliness. > > One day, you just fall asleep and never wake up again. > > That terrifies me more than _anything_ I can possibly conceive of and I can’t imagine how anyone else couldn’t find it as terrifying if they stopped to think about it, and I can’t imagine a state of existence to which that would be preferable. Ok, so; she still doesn’t get heaven, or hell, or ghostliness, or purgatory, or solitude. She “just fell asleep and never woke up again.” She doesn’t appear to have avoided anything of the qualities of death that you speak of as being the most terrifying thing you can possibly conceive of. You keep saying (now) that in fact she was scared of living her life, the life that you have been (up until now) going to such lengths to talk about as being full of hope and life and joy and such things - but hey, even if you’re correct, she _still picked the most fear-causing thing_. So, again; why does selecting the thing you fear most in the world over something you consider to be easy make her a coward? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/209 "2014-11-04T21:29:32Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > She doesn’t appear to have avoided anything of the qualities of death that you speak of as being the most terrifying thing you can possibly conceive of. So, again; why does selecting the thing you fear most in the world over something you consider to be easy make her a coward? She chose death over dying. That is cowardice. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/210 "2014-11-04T21:32:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > She chose death over dying. That is cowardice. Ah, so you _can_ conceive of something more terrifying than death, then? All that talk about the nothingness of death being the most terrifying thing you can conceive of, how “something is always better than nothing”, that was incorrect? You’ve changed your views? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/211 "2014-11-04T21:34:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > She chose death over dying. That is cowardice. And in doing so, she didn’t feel enough pain to satisfy your needs? I don’t know if this qualifies as tele-sadism, or masochism-by-proxy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/212 "2014-11-04T21:36:39Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Ah, so you _can_ conceive of something more terrifying than death, then? All that talk about the nothingness of death being the most terrifying thing you can conceive of, how “something is always better than nothing”, that was incorrect? You’ve changed your views? Dying is the scary part of death. I apologize if my previous statement was insufficiently detailed for your liking. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/213 "2014-11-04T21:37:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And in doing so, she didn’t feel enough pain to satisfy your needs? > > I don’t know if this qualifies as tele-sadism, or masochism-by-proxy. She missed out on the life she would have had. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/214 "2014-11-04T21:42:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > She missed out on the life she would have had. She had an obligation to kill herself. We shouldn’t waste effort or resources on hopless causes. Off on the ice flow with her. Every society has recognized this truth. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/215 "2014-11-04T21:42:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > She missed out on the life she would have had. The part you _just_ described as the scariest part of all? I am glad she missed that part. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/216 "2014-11-04T21:46:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The part you _just_ described as the scariest part of all? > I am glad she missed that part. I’m not looking forward to that part either. That doesn’t mean I’m going to pussy out and skip it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/217 "2014-11-04T21:47:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Dying is the scary part of death. I apologize if my previous statement was insufficiently detailed for your liking. That’s no problem at all. So long as it’s merely insufficiently detailed and not wrong, I’m happy to continue to hold you to it all. So, since it’s the nothingness that is the true basis of fear of death for you, and since Maynard took it upon herself to meet that sooner rather than wait for it, she took the braver course, correct? Because something is _always_ better than nothing, and she selected the worse course? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/218 "2014-11-04T21:47:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > She had an obligation to kill herself. We shouldn’t waste effort or resources on hopless causes. Off on the ice flow with her. Every society has recognized this truth. And people wonder where Republicans come up with the “death panels” stuff from. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/219 "2014-11-04T21:49:01Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > So, since it’s the nothingness that is the true basis of fear of death for you, and since Maynard took it upon herself to meet that sooner rather than wait for it, she took the braver course, correct? Because something is _always_ better than nothing, and she selected the worse course? The braver course would have been to continue existing. She chose to duck having to experience that. The fact that she deemed death to be preferable to life only proves that she was insane in addition to being a coward. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765/220 "2014-11-04T21:53:41Z")
**Smapti** chooses the cowardly answer in virtually every hypothetical offered (choosing not to make a tiny risk to free slaves, choosing to cause suffering to others over dying one second sooner, etc.), so he has no credibility in calling anyone at all a coward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-no-brittany-maynard-thread-terminal-disease-doctor-assisted-suicide/701765.md?page=12)