# What now for Ukraine **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, trump\ **Created:** [February 14, 2025, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302 "2025-02-14T12:49:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/201 "2025-03-04T19:14:26Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Every person in that room - Zelensky, Trump, and Vance - knew that no deal was going to happen that day, or any other day. Do you have any evidence of this beyond your own speculation? I do not get that impression from the video. > [@](#): > > You’re taking the standard Russian propaganda line here - the Russian bear is big, bad, inevitable, it shouldn’t be poked, you have to give it what it wants, make unfavorable deals, or you’ll get WW3. I haven’t said that. I think fighting on is one option, but one has to understand and accept the cost in advance. > [@](#): > > That’s “just being realistic”. But it’s not actually realism, it’s capitulation presented as common sense, and this is why all the Russian mouthpieces are saying the same thing. It’s odd that many in this thread are throwing out accusations like this without stating what they think is the right and smart thing to do. Would you care to share? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/202 "2025-03-04T19:28:40Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Trump and Vance set up this sham of a “deal”. Zelensky had to attend in order to demonstrate that he was available to talk. It also had the benefit of clearly demonstrating to Europe that Trump is firmly in Putin’s influence and under his regime the United States cannot be relied upon to support its allies. This is a lesson that should have already been obvious but the French Prime Minister crying because he apparently finally realized that Europe is going to have to take care of its own defense pretty much underlined how delusional leaders have been about this. It also made Trump and Vance look like ineffectual buffoons in thinking they could run a dog and pony show of the president of Ukraine begging for their support, not appreciating that Zelenskyy is neither dog nor pony. Trump whinging about how persecuted he and Putin have been by the press was a kind of desperate plea to lump himself in with at least one of the marginally competent autocrats he so venerates. Instead, he just seemed pathetic and not in control of his own circus even as a Foxheads try to spin this into some kind of affront by Zelenskyy in correcting a multitude of factual errors and standing up for Ukraine. Vance looked like a pathetic little Trump MiniMe, even dressed the same. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/203 "2025-03-04T19:41:57Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > That’s why I say I don’t know what Trump’s intentions are. Well, here are some hints. - Trump has frequently expressed empathy for Putin, and has even accused Ukraine of starting the war. Trump’s shameless sycophancy for Putin goes all the way back to his groveling at the Helsinki meeting. - He attacked Zelensky in the Oval Office after trying to strong-arm him into accepting a deal that gave the US mineral rights in Ukraine and gave Zelensky literally nothing in return, then threw Zelensky out of the White House. - He has now cut off all US aid to Ukraine. What do you **think** Trump’s intentions are? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/204 "2025-03-04T19:42:33Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > It’s odd that many in this thread are throwing out accusations like this without stating what they think is the right and smart thing to do. Would you care to share? Sure. Bullet points of the right and smart thing to do: - America would be right and smart to supply Ukraine with enough weapons to drive Russia out. - Zelensky would be right and smart to continue asking America for that support, which is also in America’s own best interests. - Putin would be right and smart to withdraw his forces from Ukraine before he further degrades his economic, military, and political condition. That’s what is “right and smart”, though I suspect we’ll see that you meant “smart” as Ukraine accepting that resistance is futile, because that’s the through-line of the pro-Russian positions that you’re taking. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/205 "2025-03-04T19:48:39Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Looking closer at that chart, the top question doesn’t match it’s headline. I noticed that as well. But the inevitable conclusion–that a large fraction of Europeans are _comfortable_ with a Russian victory–doesn’t exactly put them in a better light. Of course, despite all those European leaders making noise about stepping up, Europe is still sending $23 billion a year to Russia–_more_ than the aid they’re giving to Ukraine. In other words, they’re net _supporters_ of Putin and his aggression, which is much worse than one can say even of Trump. Europeans do have to heat their homes and all that. But it’s not like this isn’t a self-inflicted situation on their part. They did some very stupid things with regard to energy policy and are now paying not just a financial but also a moral price, and no one should forget that. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/206 "2025-03-04T19:49:20Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Sure, he is the ultimate narcissist and wants to be seen and glorified as a great leader, peacemaker, etc. But he also, I believe, intuits that he has to _get something done_ in order to receive that glory. While I think Trump has nothing to offer domestically because he simply has no interest in or vision for this area, I think Trump _did_ show ability in foreign policy during his first term and _might_ do so in his second. For better or worse, Trump is off the standard US foreign policy template of the past few decades. He _might_ negotiate an end to the Russia-Ukraine war, and that _might_ be a good thing. (“Might” here means I truly don’t know.) I think he expects adulation. I think he wants to “do something” to point to for getting adulation. I don’t think his “somethings” are _good_. Trump’s ability during his first administration was to insult our allies and make nice with dictators and tyrants with fawning praise. He crapped on international relations, tried to ban entry to the US for people from numerous Islamic countries. He negotiated a withdrawal from Afghanistan the same way he’s negotiating the Russian war - he bypassed the legitimate local government _that we set up_ and negotiated our ~~surrender~~ withdrawal directly with the Taliban, and set dates. And Trump moved the location of the US consulate in Israel to Jerusalem _for zero political gain or concessions_ from the Israeli government, a bargaining chip the US has been holding on to for a long time. He killed the Iranian deal that constrained their nuclear program, an act that his gotten them closer to having nuclear weapons. And those are what I remember offhand. Oh yeah, he tried to intimidate Zelenskyy to announce an investigation into Hunter Biden based on lies in order to cast doubt on Joe Biden to affect his standing in the next election. He threatened to leave NATO. I fail to see any _good_ ability at foreign policy. He is destroying America’s standing and reputation in the world. He is willy- nilly making threats of invading other countries for territory. He is starting a trade war _with our closest allies_. Yes, he _might_ be able to negotiate an end to the war, but I what terms? Standard negotiation practice is to make your entry position extensive so that your concessions leave you in a better position. And Trump always demonstrates an extreme form of this practice. But his _starting_ position with Putin is to concede all the points of contention. > [@Aeschines](#): > > It also seems clear that he was trying to negotiate a mineral rights deal with Zelensky, in which context Trump was saying that Ukraine would have “the right to fight on.” I don’t see that. He proposed ripping off Ukraine and said that a condition was Zekenskyy sign a ceasefire. He has repeatedly declared he wants to end the war. That doesn’t sound like supporting Ukraine’s right to fight on. > [@Aeschines](#): > > Or Biden or Europe or both could have told Putin, “If you invade Ukraine, we will join the battle within Ukrainian territory.” That might have prevented the war in the first place. Yes, I agree. I really wanted a harder deterrence effort by NATO. But that’s the past. > [@Aeschines](#): > > I’m not sure how assurances could be meaningful while Putin is still alive. My idea of assurances aren’t something from Putin, but something from the West. NATO membership as one of the peace plan steps. Not future, immediately upon signing. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/207 "2025-03-04T19:52:43Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I noticed that as well. But the inevitable conclusion–that a large fraction of Europeans are _comfortable_ with a Russian victory–doesn’t exactly put them in a better light. I wouldn’t see that as the inevitable conclusion. IMO the more obvious conclusion is that most people think their own country is already contributing enough and _other_ countries need to pull more weight. Yes, this implies at least some people have a misperception, but that’s common, people generally see themselves, their community and their country (in that order) in a favorable light. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/208 "2025-03-04T20:38:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > IMO the more obvious conclusion is that most people think their own country is already contributing enough and _other_ countries need to pull more weight. To be clear, I meant that as the alternative to my first interpretation, which is basically what you’re saying here. Either (some chunk of) people think Ukraine should get more support as long as someone else is doing it, or they are comfortable with a Russian victory. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/209 "2025-03-04T20:44:10Z")
Ah I see. It seems I lost track a bit of that discussion. And yes I agree that Europe needs to greatly reduce russian gas imports and take the pain from that. I was under the impression that we had already done that, I’m a bit surprised how weak the energy sanctions are. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/210 "2025-03-04T20:44:52Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > What do you **think** Trump’s intentions are? Timothy Snyder (historian of European autocracies and fascist regimes) has opinions: > **[Is it a peace process? (short video)](https://snyder.substack.com/p/is-it-a-peace-process-short-video)** > > Five quick tests for the US in a two-minute video Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/211 "2025-03-04T20:46:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > - America would be right and smart to supply Ukraine with enough weapons to drive Russia out. > - Zelensky would be right and smart to continue asking America for that support, which is also in America’s own best interests. I think it’s one option, and it may be the best based on military analysis, etc., to which I do not have access. If I were a decision-maker in the process, I would like to see projections of casualties and a projected timeline for victory. IOW, I think it’s fine to propose that, but I don’t think it’s the _only_ option. As for a peace treaty right now, I would hold analysis of that option to the same standard above. > [@](#): > > - Putin would be right and smart to withdraw his forces from Ukraine before he further degrades his economic, military, and political condition. Basically agree. The moral thing to do would be roll everything back to 2014, apologize for his crimes against peace and humanity, and resign the presidency. “Smart” from his perspective would be to sue for peace, try to hold onto as much land as possible, end the war and not attack again in the future. > [@](#): > > That’s what is “right and smart”, though I suspect we’ll see that you meant “smart” as Ukraine accepting that resistance is futile, I have said nothing of the sort. Feel free to quote something. > [@](#): > > because that’s the through-line of the pro-Russian positions that you’re taking. I hate Putin and have no emotional investment in Russia whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/212 "2025-03-04T20:53:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Ah I see. It seems I lost track a bit of that discussion. I could have been more clear, too. No problem. Some of the countries on the list have a credible claim that others should pull their weight more. Denmark for example is spending 2.2% of their GDP on aid. But France, Italy, and Spain only spend 0.3% of their GDPs on aid and they are at the _bottom_ of the list for more support. And just as a cite for the energy stuff: > **[EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more-russian-oil-gas-than-financial-aid-ukraine-report)** > > Europe estimated to have bought €22bn of fossil fuels from Russia in 2024 but gave €19bn to support Kyiv ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/213 "2025-03-04T21:00:07Z")
Excellent analysis. In short, peace is not going to be achieved when the president of the United States is Putin’s lapdog. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/214 "2025-03-04T21:01:21Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I think he expects adulation. I think he wants to “do something” to point to for getting adulation. I don’t think his “somethings” are _good_. I think Trump understands, however, that at least _someone_ has to think that the somethings are good in order to receive the adulation. But he is also capable of incorrectly assessing what will earn him that, the whole tariff thing being one example. I also don’t want to seem like I’m a _fan_ of Trump’s first-term foreign policy. I think it certainly had an ugly look and feel to it. And defending Trump any further on this will just invite a huge debate on every single point. But I think he also did some good, outside-the-box things, and he didn’t start any wars. My point is that _maybe_ he can work something out with Ukraine. Maybe he can’t. > [@](#): > > He is destroying America’s standing and reputation in the world. He is willy- nilly making threats of invading other countries for territory. He is starting a trade war _with our closest allies_. Yes, he’s gone nuts across the board, and I have a hard time imagining him lasting much longer (for both his domestic and foreign actions), but I think it’s unwise to debate that here either. > [@](#): > > My idea of assurances aren’t something from Putin, but something from the West. NATO membership as one of the peace plan steps. Not future, immediately upon signing. I think it would be fine for Ukraine to be in NATO. Putin would never agree to it, however. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/215 "2025-03-04T21:03:09Z")
What exactly did Trump say that changed your mind that he was probably right about Ukraine and Zelenskyy @Aeschines? Or I guess what did you read or see that changed your mind Ukraine should surrender now? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/216 "2025-03-04T21:11:09Z")
It’s getting tiresome trying to defend my position when it’s being misrepresented to this degree. > [@Zoobi](#): > > What exactly did Trump say that changed your mind that he was probably right about Ukraine and Zelenskyy @Aeschines? This sentence makes no sense. I haven’t made any claims as to how “right” Trump is about Ukraine and Zelensky. For the record, the things he’s been saying publicly lately are basically wrong. Zelensky isn’t a dictator. Ukraine didn’t start the war. Etc. > [@](#): > > Or I guess what did you read or see that changed your mind Ukraine should surrender now? This syntax is tortured, but I’ll do my best to figure out what you meant. I never said Ukraine should surrender now, and I don’t think that. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/217 "2025-03-04T21:20:18Z")
Certainly not if it is predicated on American ‘assurances’ under the Trump regime. Frankly, as much as Putin can’t afford this war, he can afford actual peace even less. He needs capitulation by Ukraine, or barring that, undermining Ukrainian resistance sufficient that the Russian military can make real progress in conquering substantial parts of the Donbas and making at least a try for Crimea. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/218 "2025-03-04T22:44:59Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Aside from the diplomatic tone, points to note are; > > 1. Concrete suggestions for next steps - an arial and naval truce, and release of prisoners. > 2. Willing to sign a minerals and security agreement immediately - emphasis on “and security”. > > It does look like a) Zelensky does regret the way the WH meeting went and b) the freezing of current US aid did require him to be the first to make a move. This looks to me like Zelensky playing the game he has to play, the same game Putin is playing - being open to doing a deal. As long as someone’s pretending to offer a deal, it’s in each party’s best advantage not to be the first to back out. I remain skeptical that there’s any real deal to be had. Anybody but Putin would be insane to take a deal with Trump and presume it to be binding, much less a deal with both Putin _and_ Trump. They’re both completely without honor, they break deals for fun. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/219 "2025-03-04T22:50:55Z")
As Zelensky said: _he’s not playing cards_. His country is being bombed daily. He’s doing all he _can_ do, which is to keep coming back with ways to stop the bloodshed no matter how fuckdumb and compromised the american president is. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302/220 "2025-03-04T23:42:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I remain skeptical that there’s any real deal to be had. Anybody but Putin would be insane to take a deal with Trump and presume it to be binding, much less a deal with both Putin _and_ Trump. They’re both completely without honor, they break deals for fun. There is a ‘deal’ to be had; it just isn’t one that benefits Ukraine, and frankly probably not one that benefits Trump, either. For all Trump’s blather about ‘cards’, he’s the sucker sitting at a poker table in one of his failing casinos getting outplayed because he can’t hide his tells and can’t catch a hanger to save his life, notwithstanding that Putin doesn’t play fair at anything. [“As Canada Bill Jones said, it’s immoral to let a sucker keep his money.”](https://youtu.be/kN2IMwEt-mg?si=VU4GJQPzxEIAIC--) Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-for-ukraine/1014302.md?page=12)