# What now? Re: London attacks. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467 "2005-07-07T16:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/81 "2005-07-12T00:05:34Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Well either Al-Qaida or you are completely wrong. > > England isn’t in Iraq. OOOOOOOOOOK… [http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20050709-093506-6117r.htm](http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20050709-093506-6117r.htm) > [@](#): > > The Times said Australian soldiers are already taking over from British soldiers in southern Iraq to allow up to two British special forces squadrons to deploy to Afghanistan. > Britain currently has 8,500 troops in Iraq and just over 1,000 in Afghanistan. Of course maybe you are in pedantic mode and of course England is not UK, but the context here is England = UK. I will try to be more precise next time. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/82 "2005-07-12T02:03:17Z")
I’d say that the KKK stopped being a powerful force when the culture around them stopped supporting them. As long as their friends and neighbors thought they were hot stuff, the KKK kept on going in the face of laws and the police. But eventually it became very uncool to be a klukker, and at that point the KKK began to fade away. The lesson in that is that as long as the people in the Middle East see al-Qaida as the homeboys giving a bloody nose to the evil outsiders, al-Qaida will continue. Once the locals get sick of them and start shunning them, al-Qaida will start to fade. That’s happening already in Iraq, but al-Qaida still has way too much support elsewhere in the Muslim world. Or as [Thomas Friedman](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/08/opinion/08friedman.html?oref=login) said in the NY Times on Friday: > [@](#): > > the greatest restraint on human behavior is never a policeman or a border guard. The greatest restraint on human behavior is what a culture and a religion deem shameful. It is what the village and its religious and political elders say is wrong or not allowed. Many people said Palestinian suicide bombing was the spontaneous reaction of frustrated Palestinian youth. But when Palestinians decided that it was in their interest to have a cease-fire with Israel, those bombings stopped cold. The village said enough was enough. > > The Muslim village has been derelict in condemning the madness of jihadist attacks. When Salman Rushdie wrote a controversial novel involving the prophet Muhammad, he was sentenced to death by the leader of Iran. To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden. > > Some Muslim leaders have taken up this challenge. This past week in Jordan, King Abdullah II hosted an impressive conference in Amman for moderate Muslim thinkers and clerics who want to take back their faith from those who have tried to hijack it. But this has to go further and wider. > > The double-decker buses of London and the subways of Paris, as well as the covered markets of Riyadh, Bali and Cairo, will never be secure as long as the Muslim village and elders do not take on, delegitimize, condemn and isolate the extremists in their midst. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/83 "2005-07-12T09:45:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course maybe you are in pedantic mode and of course England is not UK, but the context here is England = UK. I will try to be more precise next time. It’s not a matter of precision. It’s a matter of either being right or wrong. The “context” England = UK is wrong, incorrect, factually flawed and nonsense. So I suppose using it is a matter of your regard for factual accuracy. Little things that matter. In the same way that Iraqi Nationals do not equal Al Quaida terrorists, Saudi Arabians do not equal Iraqis and Texas does not equal the USA. As long as British soldiers are risking their lives, and dying, in Iraq I don’t think it’s _too_ much trouble to get their nationality correct. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/84 "2005-07-12T13:34:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The lesson in that is that as long as the people in the Middle East see al-Qaida as the homeboys giving a bloody nose to the evil outsiders, al-Qaida will continue. Once the locals get sick of them and start shunning them, al-Qaida will start to fade. That’s happening already in Iraq, but al-Qaida still has way too much support elsewhere in the Muslim world. Why would you say that AQ “still has way too much support elsewhere in the Muslim World” ? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/85 "2005-07-12T14:06:28Z")
Because it does? As Friedman’s article points out, no magic religious figure has ever issued a Fatwa against Bin Laden. That’s rather disturbing. And there are different levels of support - one level is active support and cheering, and another is to simply excuse everything they do as being the fault of others. The KKK used to get a lot of that level of support. “I’m not a racist or anything, and I certainly don’t condone violence, but you can certainly understand why the KKK does what it does.” That sort of thing. Hell, there was a mainstream Muslim in London that I saw on TV a few days ago, who was ostensibly on the program to show that there are moderate muslims who don’t condone this violence. He paid lip service to that notion right off the bat, then immediately launched in to a long diatribe about root causes, why they had to resort to terror, how evil the U.S. was, how understandable al-Qaida’s hatred was, yada yada yada. He came \*this close to saying, “Go team!” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/86 "2005-07-12T14:07:31Z")
“magic religious figure” Maybe a Freudian slip there. I meant MAJOR religious figure. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/87 "2005-07-12T14:22:04Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Because it does? As Friedman’s article points out, no magic religious figure has ever issued a Fatwa against Bin Laden. That’s rather disturbing. So support for AQ exists “because it does”? Come on Sam… a few of us clearly think AQ is cool for muslims… not many but more than a few. Then suddenly big bad ass Western President Bush comes along stepping on pride and conventions… and AQ is even cooler. Humiliated Arabs united. Basically for the arab man if your against AQ your for Bush mentality. (Striking similarity no ?) At a root level most of them agree on AQ motives… if not their methods of course. How can moderates object to AQ without sounding like fans of Bush ? That is why the mainstream “launched in to a long diatribe about root causes”. I also bet they would like to see Bush and Bin Laden gone… both. ``` As for the lack of a Fatwa against Bin Laden I agree its disturbing. I guess Bin Laden's religious credentials are still intact. ``` ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/88 "2005-07-12T17:34:44Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > So support for AQ exists “because it does”? Come on Sam… a few of us clearly think AQ is cool for muslims… not many but more than a few. Then suddenly big bad ass Western President Bush comes along stepping on pride and conventions… and AQ is even cooler. Humiliated Arabs united. I’m not sure what you mean by this. ‘big bad ass Western President Bush’ didn’t even seem to notice AQ and was basically focused on other things…until AQ took it into its head to directly and spectacularly attack the US on 9/11. 'Course, they were planning this attack before GW was even president…and I can’t for the life of me think what Clinton did to piss them off enough to want to murder so many US civilians (not to mention the other escalating attacks AQ did during Clintons presidency). So, I’m not seeing how either big bad GW or big bad Bubba did jack shit to piss them off to the point they wanted to directly attack the US and murder our citizens. AFTER that, certainly we did some things that would piss them off…but its almost like, I don’t know, they MANUFACTURED this incident to give them, um, one of those excuse things. The only ‘root cause’ I’m seeing is that ObL and AQ want to sieze power in the ME…and the root cause is that some other group of thugs beat them too it and they want to rectify that situation ASAP. I’m unsure what you mean by a few of you think AQ is cool for muslims. What does that mean exactly? > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Basically for the arab man if your against AQ your for Bush mentality. Horse shit. One can be against AQ and despise Bush…even if you are an ‘arab man’. Its not an either or proposition. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > As for the lack of a Fatwa against Bin Laden I agree its disturbing. I guess Bin Laden’s religious credentials are still intact. Its interesting to note that the ‘religion of peace’ doesn’t have one single prominent religion leader (afaik) come out and issue one of their Fatwa’s against a maniac who murdered 2000+ civilians completely contrary to their own holy books teachings. -XT ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/89 "2005-07-12T18:06:05Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > It’s not a matter of precision. It’s a matter of either being right or wrong. > > The “context” England = UK is wrong, incorrect, factually flawed and nonsense. So I suppose using it is a matter of your regard for factual accuracy. Little things that matter. In the same way that Iraqi Nationals do not equal Al Quaida terrorists, Saudi Arabians do not equal Iraqis and Texas does not equal the USA. > > As long as British soldiers are risking their lives, and dying, in Iraq I don’t think it’s _too_ much trouble to get their nationality correct. You think that is horrid or terrible? Heck, I can do worse. Why the other day I thought Guiness beer was British! Even \*\*Irishgirl \*\* here had to spank me for that one. 🙂 I am learning here too so I have to say that you are killing a fly with a bazooka, I do see your point, but believe me: many in other countries would have seen your first reply as an attempt to mislead. Wrongheaded it is, but many in other countries do informally equate England=UK ever since the phrase: “When England ruled the seas”, I am guilty here of forgetting Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and many others \* So, lesson learned, I will never use England=UK again. (I would hope that some people in America would stop assuming that Central America belongs to them too, but that is just me. 😉 ) - One reason for my previous ignorance needs to be clarified: am I wrong in the assumption that the majority of soldiers in the British Army are from England? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/90 "2005-07-12T18:15:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > “When England ruled the seas” “Britannia rules the waves” is a safer bet 😛 > [@](#): > > One reason for my previous ignorance needs to be clarified: am I wrong in the assumption that the majority of soldiers in the British Army are from England? No - but that’s only representative of England having the largest population. However, describing regiments such as the Black Watch or the Royal Scots as ‘English’ to their face would be a dangerous thing to do! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/91 "2005-07-12T18:20:22Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Because it does? As Friedman’s article points out, no magic religious figure has ever issued a Fatwa against Bin Laden. That’s rather disturbing. And there are different levels of support - one level is active support and cheering, and another is to simply excuse everything they do as being the fault of others. The KKK used to get a lot of that level of support. “I’m not a racist or anything, and I certainly don’t condone violence, but you can certainly understand why the KKK does what it does.” That sort of thing. Hell, there was a mainstream Muslim in London that I saw on TV a few days ago, who was ostensibly on the program to show that there are moderate muslims who don’t condone this violence. He paid lip service to that notion right off the bat, then immediately launched in to a long diatribe about root causes, why they had to resort to terror, how evil the U.S. was, how understandable al-Qaida’s hatred was, yada yada yada. He came \*this close to saying, “Go team!” > [@xtisme](#): > > Its interesting to note that the ‘religion of peace’ doesn’t have one single prominent religion leader (afaik) come out and issue one of their Fatwa’s against a maniac who murdered 2000+ civilians completely contrary to their own holy books teachings. > > -XT I guess the mainstream “liberal media” forgot to mention it: > **[The Times & The Sunday Times](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/)** > > News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times > [@](#): > > Muslims issue fatwa against bin Laden > From David Sharrock in Madrid > > A memorial to the bombs’ 191 victims was unveiled yesterday (PEDRO ARMESTRE / AFP / GETTY IMAGES) > > ON THE eve of the anniversary of mainland Europe’s bloodiest terrorist attack, the Spanish Islamic Commission issued a fatwa yesterday against Osama bin Laden, the al-Qaeda leader. > The commission, a government-backed umbrella group of Islamic associations, made the announcement as Spain prepared to mark the first anniversary today of the Madrid trains massacre with a five-minute silence to remember the victims. > > Joining the commemorations in a symbolic act of solidarity, the commission invited Spanish-based imams to condemn terrorism at Friday prayers. It also urged imams to publicise a document designed to “thank the Spanish people and the Government for their attitude towards Muslims” in the past year, in particular for not taking “disproportionate” measures similar to those which the September 11 attacks prompted in the United States. Friedman’s article was on July 8, 2005 the fatwa was on March 11, 2005. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/92 "2005-07-12T18:24:11Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > No - but that’s only representative of England having the largest population. However, describing regiments such as the Black Watch or the Royal Scots as ‘English’ to their face would be a dangerous thing to do! I know, I would prefer a spanking from **Irishgirl**! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/93 "2005-07-12T18:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Britain’s top Muslim scholars are to issue a “fatwa” which will condemn the terrorists behind Thursday’s bombings [http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298109.ece](http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298109.ece) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/94 "2005-07-12T18:51:35Z")
And in Nov. 19, 1999, Muslim clerics issued a fatwa against Osama. [http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/revents/02/19990211.htm](http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/revents/02/19990211.htm) Before 9/11 BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/95 "2005-07-12T19:15:25Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Because it does? As Friedman’s article points out, no magic religious figure has ever issued a Fatwa against Bin Laden. That’s rather disturbing. Bah. Friedman is wrong. [this](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/11/madrid.anniversary/) was moderately big news recently. Just look at the number of Google results for “Fatwa against Bin Laden”. > [@](#): > > MADRID, Spain (CNN) – Muslim clerics in Spain have issued what they called the world’s first fatwa, or Islamic edict, against Osama bin Laden as the country marked the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings that killed 191 people. > > … > > The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country’s 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission invited imams to condemn terrorism at Friday prayers. > > The fatwa said that according to the Koran “the terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his organization al Qaeda … are totally banned and must be roundly condemned as part of Islam.” I also found [this](http://www.cipe.org/publications/fs/sanberk/roundtable.htm), a “Rountable Discussion” dated November 7, 2001 (my bolding) > [@](#): > > MR. X: Could anybody issue a fatwa against bin Laden? > > DR. SANBERK: Oh, absolutely. > > MR. SULLIVAN: And several have been issued, haven’t they? > > MR. X: **Yes. A lot have. Many have. See, it hasn’t gotten much publicity, unfortunately.** But I think there was one fatwa signed by 45 of the leading, most respected religious scholars against bin Laden, not only criticizing what he said, but pointing out that he does not have the qualifications to issue fatwas, because the ability to issue a fatwa–remember that in Islamic law, the religious, or I would say legal scholar, is someone who obtains his credentials the way in the West a scientists, a natural scientist gets credentials. I remember this being pointed out almost constantly at the time - the facts of Bin Laden not being any religious authority himself and that of _his_ issuing fatwas being therefore considered ridiculous by practically all commentators. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/96 "2005-07-12T19:18:50Z")
Oops, **GIGObuster** beat me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/97 "2005-07-12T19:23:59Z")
As the CIA itself says [here](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html) > [@](#): > > conventional long form: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; note - Great Britain includes England, Scotland, and Wales > conventional short form: United Kingdom > abbreviation: UK And again :- > [@](#): > > England has existed as a unified entity since the 10th century; the union between England and Wales, begun in 1284 with the Statute of Rhuddlan, was not formalized until 1536 with an Act of Union; in another Act of Union in 1707, England and Scotland agreed to permanently join as Great Britain; the legislative union of Great Britain and Ireland was implemented in 1801, with the adoption of the name the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921 formalized a partition of Ireland; six northern Irish counties remained part of the United Kingdom as Northern Ireland and the current name of the country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was adopted in 1927 ---
**Author:** ![Dublin11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Dublin11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dublin11)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/98 "2005-07-12T19:36:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > One reason for my previous ignorance needs to be clarified: am I wrong in the assumption that the majority of soldiers in the British Army are from England? You know the man, Tim Collins who wrote the eve of battle speech that’s now hanging in the George Bush’s office? He’s from Northern Ireland. His regiment was the 1st Royal Irish regiment. So no, you are probably not wrong to say that the majority of soldiers in the British army are English, but as someone else said, it’s a numbers game and England has the highest population out of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. There are also regiments in the British army which are not from any of those countries, The Royal Gurkha Rifles and the Royal Gibraltar Regiment, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/99 "2005-07-12T19:48:37Z")
UK ignorance aside, I am disappointed that the original article I quoted was not commented on: it has one related bit of news that needs to be explained regarding what the UK is doing against TWAT (The War Against Terror) [http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20050709-093506-6117r.htm](http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20050709-093506-6117r.htm) > [@](#): > > Talks are under way to transfer military command of southern Iraq from England to Australia, the (London) Sunday Times reported. > The newspaper said the handover is intended to free up British troops for redeployment to the front line in Afghanistan. British officials could announce within weeks that several thousand British soldiers will be sent to Afghanistan. > “A framework has been devised between Britain, America and Australia in which (Britain) will take the frontline role in Afghanistan,” I do think Bush will have to deal with timetables in Iraq, even though he does not want to deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467/100 "2005-07-12T23:15:59Z")
You may also also like to [thank Tony Blair](http://www.thankyoutony.com/index.html) for his support in joining the US in the illegal invasion of Iraq. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-now-re-london-attacks/311467.md?page=6)