# what % of their income do you think the "rich" pay in federal taxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 8, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455 "2012-12-08T21:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/1 "2012-12-08T21:48:42Z")
Let’s define the “rich” as the top 1%. “Federal taxes” include FICA/payroll tax. Please don’t google before you answer - I’d like to find out what the perception is, not what the google-fu skills of the posters are. Mark the answer that’s the closest to the number you think. For reference: middle quintile of taxpayers pays around 11%. Fourth quintile pays around 15%. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/2 "2012-12-08T22:01:45Z")
… for those who won’t google the “correct” answer after they vote in the poll, I will post it some time later. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/3 "2012-12-08T22:22:49Z")
I already voted (correctly I believe), but I think you should define “income”. The truly rich don’t make much in what THEY call income, but plenty in divs and cap gains. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/4 "2012-12-08T22:36:54Z")
I’ve also already voted but terms are essential here. I interpreted as all income including dividends, cap gains, interest, so on. And not marginal tax rate, total tax rate all sources (no, not adding in corporate) assuming that your reference points were valid for those same assumptions (inclusive of payroll tax etc.). Which some googling now shows me is not apparently how you defined the terms since the reference points I come up with are different. A large part of this debate comes down to defining these terms. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/5 "2012-12-08T22:45:45Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > I already voted (correctly I believe), but I think you should define “income”. The truly rich don’t make much in what THEY call income, but plenty in divs and cap gains. IRS certainly considers dividends and capital gains income. Where do you get the idea that “the truly rich” don’t call them income? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/6 "2012-12-08T22:46:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I’ve also already voted but terms are essential here. I interpreted as all income including dividends, cap gains, interest, so on. And not marginal tax rate, total tax rate all sources (no, not adding in corporate) assuming that your reference points were valid for those same assumptions (inclusive of payroll tax etc.). > > Which some googling now shows me is not apparently how you defined the terms since the reference points I come up with are different. > > A large part of this debate comes down to defining these terms. It is all income - dividends, capital gains, interest etc. And it is not “marginal tax rate” but “effective tax rate” - that is, taxes divided by the income - as defined by IRS. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/7 "2012-12-08T22:46:53Z")
I just put in my answer based on regular taxable income. The effective rate on all sources of income is much lower. ETA: Well I see you just clarified that, so nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/8 "2012-12-08T23:02:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > IRS certainly considers dividends and capital gains income. Where do you get the idea that “the truly rich” don’t call them income? Anytime I hear people talking about a 35% tax rate. Not to be a smart ass, but whenever you hear republicans talk about taxes - it seems like THEY consider the tax rate to be 50%. They are of course counting state, property, sales, gasoline, corporate, and income (or and both halfs of the soc sec/Medicare) but are only counting the upper bracket for state & federal. Here is an example if you think I am full of crap: > **[Government Will Take Almost Half Your Paycheck in 2013](https://www.dailysignal.com/2012/08/13/government-will-take-almost-half-your-paycheck-in-2013/)** > > How high is the marginal tax rate on each additional dollar the average American earns? In other words, if you got a raise of one... Read More [doesnt use upper - but uses brackets and not effective rates] ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/9 "2012-12-08T23:03:28Z")
What with deductions, loopholes, and concealing assets–about 5%. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/10 "2012-12-08T23:07:38Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > Anytime I hear people talking about a 35% tax rate. Not to be a smart ass, but whenever you hear republicans talk about taxes - it seems like THEY consider the tax rate to be 50%. They are of course counting state, property, sales, gasoline, corporate, and income (or and both halfs of the soc sec/Medicare) but are only counting the upper bracket for state & federal. Ok - but that’s not what IRS looks at and that’s not what I am asking. To clarify - I asked what _effective tax rate_ do you think the upper 1% pay on their income - where “tax” is every federal tax including payroll or FICA tax and “income” is as-defined-by-the-IRS - including wages, capital gains and dividends? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/11 "2012-12-08T23:15:32Z")
I took Mitt Romney’s 13% as an example, and rounded up to 15% just to be generous, even though that was the highest tax he paid in the past decade. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/12 "2012-12-08T23:15:36Z")
Ok -I think that is fair - so I assume you mean data that would be on the 1040 (there are other federal taxes - like gasoline [i think]). That is how I would do it, but even looking it up, I see different answers for effective tax rate. Just wanted to nip any of that crap (like from the heritage report) in the bud, but it appears you are being rational… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/13 "2012-12-08T23:16:46Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > Ok -I think that is fair - so I assume you mean data that would be on the 1040 (there are other federal taxes - like gasoline [i think]). That is how I would do it, but even looking it up, I see different answers for effective tax rate. > > Just wanted to nip any of that crap (like from the heritage report) in the bud, but it appears you are being rational… The data I will post is not from Heritage Foundation. It is from the CBO. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/14 "2012-12-08T23:17:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I took Mitt Romney’s 13% as an example, and rounded up to 15% just to be generous, even though that was the highest tax he paid in the past decade. Yes, but to be fair - Romney is way above the 1% (on the other hand his tax rate will be way less in the future - once you take into account his $100 million IRA). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/15 "2012-12-08T23:19:28Z")
Well, [Mitt Romney paid 0% for 13 years,](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/04/1155381/-Breaking-Romney-Paid-Zero-Taxes-From-1996-To-2009) but you didn’t make that an option so I voted for 5%. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/16 "2012-12-08T23:55:24Z")
The CBO includes corporate tax as personal tax paid on income, a decision they admit is something about which there is no consensus. Certainly not the figure I used. They credit that as paid mostly by the 1% and it accounts for about 30% of the tax they say the 1% pay. My answer should be shifted up 8% given that. The 0.1% and 0.01% are another class altogether, who pay much less a share of income than the mere 1%ers. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/17 "2012-12-09T04:35:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let’s define the “rich” as the top 1%. “Federal taxes” include FICA/payroll tax. FICA may not be a good choice. It’s capped so anyone with income about the cap is not subject to it. Don’t you mean federal income taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/18 "2012-12-09T04:45:03Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > FICA may not be a good choice. It’s capped so anyone with income about the cap is not subject to it. Don’t you mean federal income taxes? No, I mean federal taxes. Not including FICA would skew the results towards rich paying more and poor/middle class paying less. Besides, the CBO data that I was looking at when I decided I wanted to find out what the perceptions are includes payroll/FICA taxes in the totals. And everyone is subject to it. The part of the income above the cap is not subject to it, but the part of the income below the cap is. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/19 "2012-12-09T05:03:45Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > I already voted (correctly I believe), but I think you should define “income”. The truly rich don’t make much in what THEY call income, but plenty in divs and cap gains. I agree. Are we talking the actual amount of money they make in a year or the amount that is legally defined as income for tax purposes? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/20 "2012-12-09T05:07:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > IRS certainly considers dividends and capital gains income. Where do you get the idea that “the truly rich” don’t call them income? Are you saying that all capital gains are taxed at the same rate as other forms of income? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455.md?page=2)