# what % of their income do you think the "rich" pay in federal taxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 8, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455 "2012-12-08T21:48:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/81 "2012-12-10T19:43:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t see it. Can you tell me why Social Security funds are stuck in 2% Treasuries rather than 8% “surefire” stock market? You were claiming that people don’t have enough money to put in stock market. But everyone pays Social Security - so why is that not put into stock market to generate those guaranteed returns? Social Security is meant to provide a minimum income for those who would be out on the streets otherwise. So a possibility of a sudden 50% drop in assets would be unacceptable, even if it would make a profit in the long run. In addition, the stock market is of course subject to the laws of supply and demand. The Social Security trust fund contains a substantial portion of the total capitalization of the S+P 500, so merely by investing it in the stock market, it will drive up prices that will drive down those 8% returns. Of course, in theory it may drive more investment in companies and thus spur the economy, but as a second-order effect, it would not be as powerful as directly investing in start-up companies would be (which the government isn’t very good at when the object is _profit_.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/82 "2012-12-10T20:09:37Z")
> [@bup](#): > > The 8% rule-of-thumb takes that into account. Some stocks double in a year, or do better. Diversifying and keeping the money in for at least 5 years makes losing money almost impossible. That’s one of those things that, if it were true, it couldn’t stay true. IOW, as soon as we discover a way where it’s almost impossible to lose money, it will be overbought and people will lose money. That’s called a bubble. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/83 "2012-12-10T20:12:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Social Security is meant to provide a minimum income for those who would be out on the streets otherwise. So a possibility of a sudden 50% drop in assets would be unacceptable, even if it would make a profit in the long run. What could be more long run than Social Security? > [@](#): > > In addition, the stock market is of course subject to the laws of supply and demand. The Social Security trust fund contains a substantial portion of the total capitalization of the S+P 500, so merely by investing it in the stock market, it will drive up prices that will drive down those 8% returns. Of course, in theory it may drive more investment in companies and thus spur the economy, but as a second-order effect, it would not be as powerful as directly investing in start-up companies would be (which the government isn’t very good at when the object is _profit_.) It wouldn’t be done all at once. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/84 "2012-12-10T20:18:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You should tell Obama and Democrats. I don’t think they heard the same thing you have been hearing. I see **steronz** posted a reply to this, citing Medicare cuts proposed by the president and other Democrats, that you haven’t addressed. Any response? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/85 "2012-12-10T20:21:46Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I see **steronz** posted a reply to this, citing Medicare cuts proposed by the president and other Democrats, that you haven’t addressed. Any response? What’s to respond to? **steronz** cited an article that states, unambiguously, that according to Democrats any suggestions from their side on entitlement cuts are, to quote the response exactly, "not going to happen”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/86 "2012-12-10T20:26:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What’s to respond to? **steronz** cited an article that states, unambiguously, that according to Democrats any suggestions from their side on entitlement cuts are, to quote the response exactly, "not going to happen”. Are any of these Democrats named Obama? You seem to be mistaking posturing as a part of negotiating with real positions. Plenty of Republicans said there would never be any tax rate increase also. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/87 "2012-12-10T20:27:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Are any of these Democrats named Obama? Did Obama suggest cutting entitlements in the current negotiations? If so, I missed it. Can you give me a cite? And “maybe we will do it some time later” doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/88 "2012-12-10T20:29:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s one of those things that, if it were true, it couldn’t stay true. IOW, as soon as we discover a way where it’s almost impossible to lose money, it will be overbought and people will lose money. That’s called a bubble. The belief that buckets of mortgages could have both the returns of high risk subprimes and the safety of low risk mortgages was a major factor in the crash. Everyone knows you can’t get something for nothing - except when the machine doing it is very complicated. It’s why perpetual motion machines have so many parts. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/89 "2012-12-10T20:32:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Did Obama suggest cutting entitlements in the current negotiations? If so, I missed it. Can you give me a cite? And “maybe we will do it some time later” doesn’t count. “Both **the White House’s deficit-reduction proposal** and the Republican counter-offer, submitted on Monday, **call for cuts to Medicare** ” “ **President Obama’s 2013 budget** , for instance, **includes hundreds of billions in Medicare cuts** ” Both of those are from post #70 in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/90 "2012-12-10T20:33:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Did Obama suggest cutting entitlements in the current negotiations? If so, I missed it. Can you give me a cite? And “maybe we will do it some time later” doesn’t count. Obama isn’t suggesting cutting anything yet, since he learned four years ago that making proposals that are reasonable either get rejected by the Republicans or used as the starting point. He’s just asking for some input from those who really want to cut. Plus it is good leverage to get the tax rate increase. He has never rejected cutting in principle. You do remember how Romney attacked him for cutting Medicare, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/91 "2012-12-10T20:33:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The belief that buckets of mortgages could have both the returns of high risk subprimes and the safety of low risk mortgages was a major factor in the crash. Everyone knows you can’t get something for nothing - except when the machine doing it is very complicated. It’s why perpetual motion machines have so many parts. I’m sure you know as many people as I do in the Bay Area who thought that real estate prices here would never go down. Fortunately, I wasn’t on of them! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/92 "2012-12-10T20:36:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > “Both **the White House’s deficit-reduction proposal** and the Republican counter-offer, submitted on Monday, **call for cuts to Medicare** ” Link me to the “deficit reduction proposal”. > [@](#): > > “ **President Obama’s 2013 budget** , for instance, **includes hundreds of billions in Medicare cuts** ” Link me to the “2013 budget”. IIRC, Obama’s budget proposals to date were so laughable that they were unanimously voted down by the whole of Congress, Democrats and Republicans together. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/93 "2012-12-10T20:41:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What’s to respond to? **steronz** cited an article that states, unambiguously, that according to Democrats any suggestions from their side on entitlement cuts are, to quote the response exactly, "not going to happen”. I believe this is the paragraph your’re referring to: > [@](#): > > Politico quotes a “top Democratic official” who paints the picture simply: “Rob Nabors [the White House negotiator], has been saying: ‘This is what we want on revenues on the down payment. What’s your guys’ ask on the entitlement side?’ And they keep looking back at us and saying: ‘We want you to come up with that and pitch us.’ That’s not going to happen.” They’re not saying that entitlements won’t be reduced, or even that Democrats would oppose reductions, only that they’re not going to pitch the specifics to Republicans. And why should they? Let each side bring to the table those things they want to fight for.[sup]\*[/sup] And the question that started this sub-topic had to do with shared sacrifice in bringing down the deficit. So what sacrifice would you ask of the top 1%, or at least grudgingly accept? - There are occasions in life when we all negotiate; the salary at a new job, the price of a new car, etc. You may hear a question like “what were you hoping to pay for this car?” I’ve heard it said that whoever is the first to give a specific number is the loser. That seems to be what the Republicans are after, here. They’re trying to get the Democrats to give the first number on potential tax raises and entitlement cuts. There’s no reason they have to. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/94 "2012-12-10T20:46:28Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > And the question that started this sub-topic had to do with shared sacrifice in bringing down the deficit. So what sacrifice would you ask of the top 1%, or at least grudgingly accept? If taxes are raised, they should be raised on everyone. Including the 1%. They were lowered for everyone. So if they are raised, they should be raised for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/95 "2012-12-10T20:51:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Link me to the “deficit reduction proposal”. Amazingly, they didn’t submit it to me. [Here’s the one from last year](http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/jointcommitteereport.pdf), in which Obama calls for: > [@](#): > > This plan is a balanced one that asks everyone to do their part. It includes nearly $580 billion in cuts and reforms to mandatory programs, of which $320 billion is savings from Federal health programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. These changes are necessary to maintain the promise of Medicare as we know it. > [@Terr](#): > > Link me to the “2013 budget”. IIRC, Obama’s budget proposals to date were so laughable that they were unanimously voted down by the whole of Congress, Democrats and Republicans together. The budget’s [been out since February](http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget). It’s routinely ignored by congress, for all presidents. I don’t know why congress requires the president to present a budget if they’re just going to ignore it. The point isn’t that it’s a real budget or anything, it’s that Obama put entitlement cuts on the table a long time ago, and is _still_ putting them on the table, contrary to your claims otherwise in this thread. Quit moving the goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/96 "2012-12-10T20:56:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If taxes are raised, they should be raised on everyone. Including the 1%. They were lowered for everyone. So if they are raised, they should be raised for everyone. If that were to happen, would you still support entitlement reform which would mean additional sacrifice for only some segments of the population? ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/97 "2012-12-10T21:13:46Z")
The rich would still benefit from the lower tax brackets below 39.6%. This is not some punishment where if they are in the higher tax bracket they get the shaft. Only the income above whatever the cutoff gets a shaft - and they pay like 4.6% points on that income only (at least as far as the earned income tax brackets go). Who had stuff lowered before really is irrelevant. What matters is what is fair now. We are never going to convince you it is fair. Luckily the 1% (or whatever) only gets 1% of the vote. Why not have a flat tax - or better yet just have everyone pay the same amount? There is no magic way to do this. Most people think the rich don’t pay enough. Granted most of them aren’t rich. Don’t worry - all the poor people will still be poor - and the rich will still be rich. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/98 "2012-12-10T21:14:22Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Amazingly, they didn’t submit it to me. [Here’s the one from last year](http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/jointcommitteereport.pdf), in which Obama calls for: Yes, last year they did. This year is different. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/99 "2012-12-10T21:17:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If that were to happen, would you still support entitlement reform which would mean additional sacrifice for only some segments of the population? Reminds me the tale of these two poor settlers in Palestine at the beginning of the 20th century that were receiving a stipend from Rothschild. One of them dies, and Rothschild cuts off that stipend. The other one writes to him accusing him of trying to profit on the death of his friend. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455/100 "2012-12-10T21:19:49Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > TWho had stuff lowered before really is irrelevant. What matters is what is fair now. Ah there is that “fair” again. So - it is not fair, in your opinion, that the “rich” pay double the percentage of their income in taxes compared to “middle class” and 4-5-10 times the percentage compared to the “poor”? But add a few percent more to that - and it becomes “fair”? > [@](#): > > Most people think the rich don’t pay enough. Granted most of them aren’t rich. And granted most of them (as we can see in this thread) have no idea what the rich pay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-of-their-income-do-you-think-the-rich-pay-in-federal-taxes/643455.md?page=6)