# What other forced relocations of more than 11 million people have occurred in history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224 "2016-08-28T00:31:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/21 "2016-08-28T11:23:05Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > It’s possible to imagine 50 simultaneous raids being carried out on the same day, one in each state. Each one with arrests of a couple hundred immigrants, and a dozen (white) business owners. > That would send a signal to the immigrants…and to their employers…that the game is over. > > Then over the course of a year or two, let Greyhound do the rest of the work, and make a nice profit (Trump likes profits! 🙂 ) as people take to the highways south. If self deportation is your goal, hitting all fifty states equally is not very productive. If I were illegal in a sparsely populated state like Wyoming, I wouldn’t go to Mexico, I would just move to a large state with a large Latino population. In a state like Texas with nearly two million illegal immigrants, arresting 300 is not going to make much of an impression. At best, you will be playing whack-a-mole as your targets move around the country to the perceived safer areas. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/22 "2016-08-28T12:01:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If self deportation is your goal, hitting all fifty states equally is not very productive. …, arresting 300 is not going to make much of an impression.. My main point wasn’t the 300 arrested workers. What would make an impression is arrestiing the (mostly white) business owners right alongside them. And not only one time. Making heavily publicized arrests in every state, repeatedly, every couple weeks for year or two…until business owners become afraid to hire illegals. As the jobs dry up for the illegals, and the jails fill up with middle class businessmen , it may lead to a migration --But it would not be comparable to the OP’s question about historical “forced relocations”, which have almost always been violent and cruel. (oh…and it isn’t my goal…it’s Trump’s goal) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/23 "2016-08-28T12:15:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What about the population exchange between India and Pakistan? was it comparable? That population exchange was voluntary, not coerced or subsidized by the government. (Well, voluntary as far as _governments_ went, there was a whole lot of rioting, mini-pogroms and other violence at the individual level which coerced members of the minority religion to free. Muslims are free to live in India today though and many do, as do Hindus in Pakistan and more so Bangladesh). ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/24 "2016-08-28T13:17:01Z")
In my skim through this thread, no one seems to have addressed the issue of who will accept the people being deported. When illegal immigrants arrive in the UK, the first thing they do is to dispose of any identity documents that would show where they came from. Just because someone speaks looks like a Somali, doesn’t mean that they are. Just because they Spanish and wear a big hat, doesn’t make them a Mexican that the Mexican government would accept. Putting them in camps is self-defeating as it would cost more than having them outside and working - supporting themselves. A closed border is closed in both directions, so would America be prepared to invade its Southern neighbour to force them to take their unwanted people. Would the rest of the world sit back and let America get away with it? And what would they do? Trade sanctions; forced deportation of American citizens; frozen assets? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/25 "2016-08-28T14:17:38Z")
During the Bangladesh War of Independence in the early 1970s, there were at one time an estimated 10 million refugees who fled to eastern India. You can argue whether the movement was forced or not. The choice was to leave or stay and take a chance of being killed or raped. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/26 "2016-08-28T14:32:29Z")
It is [estimated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union) that in total about 6M Soviet citizens were relocated during the 20s-50s within the USSR. This doesn’t include, for example, about a couple million Poles that got [kicked around](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_Poles_from_the_USSR) from WWI to the 1950s and other such changes. Kicking 11M people out would definitely put you in the Joe Stalin at his worst category. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/27 "2016-08-28T15:37:31Z")
I’m no Trump supporter, but frankly, I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to compare Trump’s plan to historical forced migrations of people who had lived in the same place for generations. Not that I believe Trump has any intention of executing his plan, of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/28 "2016-08-28T16:04:39Z")
I’m not saying the OP is asking an illegitimate question, but he does strongly imply that Trump said he’d deport all illegal immigrants within one year of taking office. I did a google search and couldn’t come up with any quotes where he said that. Did he actually say he’d deport them all within a year of taking office? Does anyone have a link to such a quote? > [@Northern Piper](#): > > I’m not trying to turn this into a political debate; I’m just curious in working out the implications and implementation of the proposed policy, as set out by Trump. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/29 "2016-08-28T16:05:35Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > During the Bangladesh War of Independence in the early 1970s, there were at one time an estimated 10 million refugees who fled to eastern India. You can argue whether the movement was forced or not. The choice was to leave or stay and take a chance of being killed or raped. I think of this this, and the Pakistan partition, when the trope of The Most Horrible Moslem Expulsion Ever in Palestine is adduced, constantly and with the air of ultimate truth. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/30 "2016-08-28T16:13:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Within five years, approximately [12-13 million Germans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_%281944%E2%80%9350%29) were forced out of Poland, Czechoslovakia and other East/Central European countries and made to migrate to Germany/Austria. During the war the Nazis deported [upwards of 15 million people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II) _into_ Germany for use as slave labor. > [@](#): > > The use of forced labour in Nazi Germany and throughout German-occupied Europe during World War II took place on an unprecedented scale.[2] It was a vital part of the German economic exploitation of conquered territories. It also contributed to the mass extermination of populations in German-occupied Europe. The Nazi Germans abducted approximately 12 million people from almost twenty European countries; about two thirds of whom came from Eastern Europe.[1] Many workers died as a result of their living conditions - mistreatment, malnutrition, and torture were the main causes of death. They became civilian casualties of shelling.[3] At its peak the forced labourers comprised 20% of the German work force. Counting deaths and turnover, about 15 million men and women were forced labourers at one point or another during the war.[4] > > The liberation of Germany in 1945 freed 11 million foreigners, called “displaced persons” – chiefly forced labourers and POWs. In addition to POWs, the Germans had seized 2.8 million Soviet workers to labour in factories in Germany. Returning them home was a high priority for the Allies. However, in the case of Russians and Ukrainians, returning often meant suspicion, prison, or death [citation needed]. The United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA), Red Cross, and military operations provided food, clothing, shelter, and assistance in returning home. In all, 5.2 million foreign workers and POWs were repatriated to the Soviet Union, 1.6 million to Poland, 1.5 million to France, and 900,000 to Italy, along with 300,000 to 400,000 each to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Hungary, and Belgium.[5] ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/31 "2016-08-28T17:28:59Z")
“forced relocations of more than 11 million people”, from a country about 330 million. By contrast 1/30 of the population of the entire Roman Empire in Caesar’s time was barely 1.2 million. Rome had about 6 million slaves, and another few million slaves or conscripts available from Gauls, Germanics, Slavs, ?? So. Were there forced relocations of 1,000,000+ (i.e. ethnic cleansings) in Europe during the Roman Era? Certainly there were mass movements; how many were “forced”? Didn’t Julius Caesar once brag of killing several 100,000 in a single day? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/32 "2016-08-29T00:21:21Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > In my skim through this thread, no one seems to have addressed the issue of who will accept the people being deported. When illegal immigrants arrive in the UK, the first thing they do is to dispose of any identity documents that would show where they came from. Just because someone speaks looks like a Somali, doesn’t mean that they are. Just because they Spanish and wear a big hat, doesn’t make them a Mexican that the Mexican government would accept. > > Putting them in camps is self-defeating as it would cost more than having them outside and working - supporting themselves. > > A closed border is closed in both directions, so would America be prepared to invade its Southern neighbour to force them to take their unwanted people. Would the rest of the world sit back and let America get away with it? And what would they do? Trade sanctions; forced deportation of American citizens; frozen assets? That’s a very good point, and one that never seems to come up in these discussions. “Send them back to Mexico” ignores the fact that many Latin illegal immigrants in the US didn’t come from Mexico in the first place. Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras… Even if we were able to make a rock solid case for the nationality of 90% of those here illegally (and that’s pretty optimistic), we’d still be dealing with ~1.1M people we couldn’t deport anywhere. Is there any international law or norm that says a country has take a citizen back if that citizen is in another country illegally? ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/33 "2016-08-29T01:05:44Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > In my skim through this thread, no one seems to have addressed the issue of who will accept the people being deported. When illegal immigrants arrive in the UK, the first thing they do is to dispose of any identity documents that would show where they came from. Just because someone speaks looks like a Somali, doesn’t mean that they are. Just because they Spanish and wear a big hat, doesn’t make them a Mexican that the Mexican government would accept. > > Putting them in camps is self-defeating as it would cost more than having them outside and working - supporting themselves. > > A closed border is closed in both directions, so would America be prepared to invade its Southern neighbour to force them to take their unwanted people. Would the rest of the world sit back and let America get away with it? And what would they do? Trade sanctions; forced deportation of American citizens; frozen assets? Definitely a non-trivial concern. Asking them where they would prefer to be returned to might help, but some will lie about that and some will be in line for being killed if returned. Some non-zero number are refugees from totalitarian regimes outside of Latin America who very well might be imprisoned or executed upon return. Not to mention the economic loss to the US economy. Of those 11 million, I think it’s safe to assume at least three million are currently employed and all 11 million are consumers. Their level of consumption may average on the low end, but it’s certainly significant. It’s impossible to peg them all as some “typical wetback”. BTW, one of my sons in law is an immigrant. Documented and has always been gainfully employed in a responsible position. (Actually a professor.) Became a US citizen last month. His overall contribution to the US economy has been very positive and with the research dollars he’s been bringing in, that contribution will increase. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/34 "2016-08-29T01:42:58Z")
Relevant [Wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer) for context. I think there are only a few cases in history where 11 million people were moved force-ably. I dont want to mix terms, but there appears to be a difference between forced relocation (moving populations from one place to another for some reason), ethnic cleansing (killing-off people of a certain ethnicity), deportation (moving people out of one country to another), etc. Where I hear the terms “Forced Relocation/Ethnic Cleansing” I think of the aftermath of the break-up of Yugoslavia. I think an early page in the Trump playbook was to identify a boogeyman - illegal immigrants. He will ride this all the way, facts be damned. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/35 "2016-08-29T13:18:21Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > In my skim through this thread, no one seems to have addressed the issue of who will accept the people being deported. When illegal immigrants arrive in the UK, the first thing they do is to dispose of any identity documents that would show where they came from. Just because someone speaks looks like a Somali, doesn’t mean that they are. Just because they Spanish and wear a big hat, doesn’t make them a Mexican that the Mexican government would accept. > > Putting them in camps is self-defeating as it would cost more than having them outside and working - supporting themselves. > > A closed border is closed in both directions, so would America be prepared to invade its Southern neighbour to force them to take their unwanted people. Would the rest of the world sit back and let America get away with it? And what would they do? Trade sanctions; forced deportation of American citizens; frozen assets? Oh, that’s easy. At least for a Trump true believer. First we build the wall. Then we round up all the illegals. Then near the wall we set up an array of catapults. Then things go sort of like this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8jGqdE2iw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8jGqdE2iw) Once the illegals are over the wall what happens next is not our concern. They should have thought more carefully about the consequences of their vile illegality before they came here. FTR and for the benefit of the excessively literal-minded: I am \*\*not \*\* personally endorsing this plan. I’m merely highlighting the kinds of fantastical thinking that’s going on in the heads of the folks, including Trump himself, who are advocating this mass deportation silliness / insanity. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/36 "2016-08-29T14:09:08Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Oh, that’s easy. At least for a Trump true believer. > > First we build the wall. Then we round up all the illegals. Then near the wall we set up an array of catapults. Then things go sort of like this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8jGqdE2iw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8jGqdE2iw) > > Once the illegals are over the wall what happens next is not our concern. They should have thought more carefully about the consequences of their vile illegality before they came here. > > FTR and for the benefit of the excessively literal-minded: I am \*\*not \*\* personally endorsing this plan. I’m merely highlighting the kinds of fantastical thinking that’s going on in the heads of the folks, including Trump himself, who are advocating this mass deportation silliness / insanity. Hey - that would work. Well; at least until the people on the other side of the wall start rounding up all their undesirable and lobbing them back. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/37 "2016-08-29T15:18:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not saying the OP is asking an illegitimate question, but he does strongly imply that Trump said he’d deport all illegal immigrants within one year of taking office. I did a google search and couldn’t come up with any quotes where he said that. Did he actually say he’d deport them all within a year of taking office? Does anyone have a link to such a quote? I don’t have a direct quotation from him, and it looks like I was off by a year: two years of taking office, not one. Here’s the [LA Times’ summary](http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-deport-20160822-snap-story.html): > [@](#): > > At rallies and debates over the last year, Donald Trump has repeatedly vowed to round up and deport the estimated 11 million people in the country illegally, **sometimes saying he would eject them all in two years**. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/38 "2016-08-29T15:20:33Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > I’m no Trump supporter, but frankly, I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to compare Trump’s plan to historical forced migrations of people who had lived in the same place for generations. Why? Do you think the logistics of forced deportation of 11 million people are easier if they’ve not lived in the same place for generations? Do you think it has less impact on the lives of people who are forcibly removed from the country? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/39 "2016-08-29T17:29:02Z")
The one intelligent thing I’ve heard Trump say was that he would ramp up the eVerify system. You don’t have to arrest white guys for hiring illegal immigrants. Why put them in jail? If they have the money to pay workers, they have money to help pay government debt… fines. Nobody’s going to feel sorry for rich white guys paying fines, except other rich white guys about to get the same treatment. Start with the bigger employers, and then make it progressively applicable to smaller employers. Failing to collect taxes or social security are offenses, so paying under the table won’t fly either. Presumably, not paying anything (welfare, medicare) for people not legally entitled to to be in the country is a next step. I would be skeptical that people will actually leave when the going gets tough. Someone who’s been here 20 years or more probably won’t leave just because they lost that first job… There will be plenty of stories of hardship… It’s a problem 40 years in the making. You won’t fix 40 years of neglect in 1 day. (The problem is… those rich white guys are who finance political campaigns in various districts.) ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224/40 "2016-08-29T17:39:42Z")
Another thing is what to do with all the minor children born here whose parents would be subject to deportation. Legally, those children are US citizens, entitled to stay, and if there are no relatives here legally, their parents can leave them here, where they will become part of the already-overburdened foster care system. They will be entitled to education, and to lots of services, including some that they might not avail themselves of if they lived with their parents, like free school lunches. Plus, these kids are probably going to age out of the foster care system in droves, and when people do that, they often are homeless, at least for a while. There is little in the way of support structures to help people aging out of foster care. And this contributes to the drop out rate. A few states allow for support for children beyond their 18th birthday, as long as they are in high school full time, but it still ends the day they get their diploma. Some states end support on people’s 18th birthdays, even if it comes before they have a chance to finish high school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-other-forced-relocations-of-more-than-11-million-people-have-occurred-in-history/764224.md?page=3)