# What Pakistan knew about Bin Laden **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2014, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144 "2014-03-20T08:47:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/21 "2014-03-20T14:46:49Z")
> [@Raging\_Bull](#): > > I hope you will excuse my skepticism. So, umm…I guess like all of NASA during Apollo, you [believe all these people](http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/5680724572/) were just making shit up? And, as everyone else has already said, why haven’t the remnants of al-Qaeda accused us of lying? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/22 "2014-03-20T20:12:24Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > You know… the Pakistani government losing their shit and the exploded pieces of spy helicopter… that’s kind of evidence. > > Anyway, without going into too much detail, there is copious evidence of ISI’s complicity, even in the open source. The US government chooses to ignore it for reasons that baffle me. I am stunned and appalled by our leadership’s failure to confront Pakistan for its crimes. There are no good outcomes in our dealings with Pakistan. We have little influence in Pakistan now. We can have less, is that better than buying some cooperation? Weigh the amount of money spent vs. what we’re getting. If we change one, we’ll get a pushback on the other. Yeah, it does feel icky, but in the ME, there are no friends, only enemies of your enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/23 "2014-03-20T21:06:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > We have little influence in Pakistan now. We have no influence. Pakistan has been bilking the U.S. out of money for a decade by saying that if they get just a little more aid they’ll do something about Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Oh, and if they don’t get their money, Al Qaeda and the Taliban might take over the country and get their nukes. It’s this close to “nice planet you have there- it’d be a shame if something happened to it.” Meanwhile the ISI has never stopped supporting the very same fanatics and terrorists the government supposedly needs protection from. Any efforts to deal with the religious fanatics are calculated so they don’t piss off the native population and they’re not that effective. It’s deeply fucked up and dysfunctional, and they have no interest in changing it one bit because it keeps the money rolling in. And after 11 or 12 years and I’m not sure how many billions in aid, it hasn’t improved one whit. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/24 "2014-03-20T22:57:01Z")
> [@Raging\_Bull](#): > > > [@bldysabba](#): > > > > What are your thoughts on Elvis? > > Most sought after and hunted enemy in the United States History “killed” in a succesful op > > -Not a shred of physical evidence > > - No body ,no pics, relying solely on word of mouth. > -I find it difficult to believe anything without proof > > I hope you will excuse my skepticism. The rest of you think **Raging Bull** was talking about Bin Laden, but if you look at his post he was _clearly_ talking about Elvis. Let’s try to follow the conversation, kids, and not fly off on a wild tangent. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/25 "2014-03-21T00:35:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What do you mean “support structure”? The war was most certainly about removing al Qaeda, and since ObL was the leader, it was quite a bit about him. Was it only about him? Of course not. I thought it was to remove the regime (i.e Taliban) that sheltered Al Qaeda and provided a base of operations for them to exist. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/26 "2014-03-21T00:38:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I do. Remember, bin Laden arrived in Pakistan at around the same time Musharraf was busy surviving two (three?) assassination attempts and looked quite vulnerable to a coup. Is there any evidence that the assassination attempts on him were linked to the ISI? I’m not saying he had perfect control over extremists in Pakistan, I’m saying that it’s laughable to suggest he did not have control over the ISI. Especially to the same extent that civilian governments lack control. And that is what Askance was suggesting in his/her post ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/27 "2014-03-21T00:58:49Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > There are no good outcomes in our dealings with Pakistan. > > We have little influence in Pakistan now. We can have less, is that better than buying some cooperation? Weigh the amount of money spent vs. what we’re getting. If we change one, we’ll get a pushback on the other. Yeah, it does feel icky, but in the ME, there are no friends, only enemies of your enemies. In the ME? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/28 "2014-03-21T01:43:29Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > In the ME? Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/29 "2014-03-21T01:45:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Were I President at the time, I should find it very difficult to not hold a press conference and pull his head out of a bag. > There would certainly be disastrous consequences, but it would be so tempting. Not only is that a disgusting display that no modern leader should ever think of doing, it’s a completely fake head with manufactured blood and DNA and everyone who says differently is in on it too. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/30 "2014-03-21T02:13:55Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > “Pakistan knew” is an almost meaningless sentence. > > Some people in Pakistan knew - certainly. > > Some people in Pakistan, that you could describe as part of the government, knew - certainly. > > Some people in Pakistan’s intelligence service knew - certainly. > > But going from there to “the government knew” or “the intelligence service (as a whole)” knew - no, there’s no evidence I’m aware of. Why should the entire government or intelligence service know, for you to be convinced Pakistan was in the know? Secrets as important as these would be necessarily restricted to the top tier of individuals; if they knew, it is as good as the government and ISI knowing about it too. To say otherwise is ridiculous. How many people know the launch codes for Minuteman missiles? The POTUS alone, or a few more top officials? Maybe the US should widely disseminate this information to the larger intelligence community? > [@Askance](#): > > And you have to realise that the Pakistan intelligence service is a state within a state - hugely more so than the CIA. It’s more like the Chinese Army; it runs with basically no oversight or control from what we would think of as 'the government", ie the executive and the legislature. They have essentially run a proxy war in Afghanistan against the US and the West for 10 years and the Pakistan government has been powerless to stop them, on those occasions when it’s actually genuinely wanted to. Powerless. The “state within a state” theory is highly overblown, and an excuse the Pakistanis themselves frequently offer to explain away their impotence. The civilian government is usually aligned with the military’s objectives, though the ISI keeps the civilian clowns out of the picture during ground-level ops (and rightly so). It is bullshit to say the Pakistani government were powerless to stop them, as if they ever genuinely wanted to but couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/31 "2014-03-21T03:21:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Not only is that a disgusting display that no modern leader should ever think of doing, it’s a completely fake head with manufactured blood and DNA and everyone who says differently is in on it too. I dunno, the brains hanging out of the eye socket would surely be authenticating. It would make lots of testosterone poisoned Americans feel good, and impress a lot of testosterone poisoned militant Muslims. And it would make me feel so good! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/32 "2014-03-21T04:35:15Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Middle East. Pakistan is not in the Middle East ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/33 "2014-03-21T09:06:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Were I President at the time, I should find it very difficult to not hold a press conference and pull his head out of a bag. That’s some real Teddy Roosevelt shit right there. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/34 "2014-03-21T10:41:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That’s some real Teddy Roosevelt shit right there. He was such a bear. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/35 "2014-03-21T11:06:56Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > “Pakistan knew” is an almost meaningless sentence. > > Some people in Pakistan knew - certainly. > > Some people in Pakistan, that you could describe as part of the government, knew - certainly. > > Some people in Pakistan’s intelligence service knew - certainly. > > But going from there to “the government knew” or “the intelligence service (as a whole)” knew - no, there’s no evidence I’m aware of. > > And you have to realise that the Pakistan intelligence service is a state within a state - hugely more so than the CIA. It’s more like the Chinese Army; it runs with basically no oversight or control from what we would think of as 'the government", ie the executive and the legislature. They have essentially run a proxy war in Afghanistan against the US and the West for 10 years and the Pakistan government has been powerless to stop them, on those occasions when it’s actually genuinely wanted to. Powerless. Yep. No neat little boxes, no simple dichotomy. How come this is still an issue on this messageboard 12 years after 9/11? The subject must have been discussed dozens of times. What **Askance** writes is not remotely controversial and the magazine article is advert filler. Big up to the 9/11 industry. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/36 "2014-03-21T13:25:26Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Is there any evidence that the assassination attempts on him were linked to the ISI? I’m not saying he had perfect control over extremists in Pakistan, I’m saying that it’s laughable to suggest he did not have control over the ISI. Especially to the same extent that civilian governments lack control. And that is what Askance was suggesting in his/her post He seemed to think at least one of the attempts involved elements of the ISI. It’s also possible that the attempts were hoaxes by Musharraf and the ISI to get the west to throw more money at him. > [@bldysabba](#): > > Pakistan is not in the Middle East It is according to [some definitions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East), though I happen to think that’s just intellectual laziness (hey, let’s put all the Muslim countries together!) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/37 "2014-03-21T13:52:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It is according to [some definitions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East), though I happen to think that’s just intellectual laziness (hey, let’s put all the Muslim countries together!) Makes more sense than Algeria! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/38 "2014-03-21T18:43:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We have no influence. Pakistan has been bilking the U.S. out of money for a decade by saying that if they get just a little more aid they’ll do something about Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Oh, and if they don’t get their money, Al Qaeda and the Taliban might take over the country and get their nukes. It’s this close to “nice planet you have there- it’d be a shame if something happened to it.” Meanwhile the ISI has never stopped supporting the very same fanatics and terrorists the government supposedly needs protection from. Any efforts to deal with the religious fanatics are calculated so they don’t piss off the native population and they’re not that effective. It’s deeply fucked up and dysfunctional, and they have no interest in changing it one bit because it keeps the money rolling in. And after 11 or 12 years and I’m not sure how many billions in aid, it hasn’t improved one whit. I still think that counts as _some_ influence. Its not the way we want it, sure, but it still means the US does something in order for Pakistan to do something, and that is influence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/39 "2014-03-21T18:47:58Z")
But they don’t actually do anything. They only control the Taliban/AQ to the extent its in their own best interests to do so. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144/40 "2014-03-21T20:19:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But they don’t actually do anything. They only control the Taliban/AQ to the extent its in their own best interests to do so. Perhaps it gave them a false sense of security when the USA discovered Bin Ladin’s whereabouts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden/684144.md?page=3)