# What paranormal phenomena, if demonstrated to be true, would you consider proof of the supernatural? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693 "2010-06-18T18:06:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/1 "2010-06-18T18:06:22Z")
Imagine, if you will, that I am a genuine telepath of the Charles Xavier type: I can read and cast thoughts over a limited distance, as well as probing another person’s memories. My brain’s obviously better than average, so no non-telepath can prevent me from using my power, any more than the average unarmed couch potato can stop David Hayes from skipping to the front of the line at the DMV if he feels like it. For practical purposes, I am constrained in the use of my telepathy mostly by my personal ethics. Now let’s say I decide to prove that to a pair of skeptics, Bruce & Terry, who know and trust one another The three of us gather in a small room of their choosing, which they may check in any way they please for surveillance devices. Bruce & Terry bring three pens and three pads of paper with them, which they have acquired themselves. After searching me for any sort of communication device they position me so that I cannot see them. Once they are satisfied that I cannot peek, they each take a pad and pen and write a message to the other. I have the third pad, and using my telepathy I read their thoughts so that I can copy what they have written. We all compare our pads, and my copy matches theirs. We repeat this enough times and with enough variation and rigor (say, adding blindfolds, moving to different locations, etc) to convince them of my bona fides. So I’m a genuine telepath. That’s verified. Does that say anything about the existence of souls, the afterlife, God, or gods? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/2 "2010-06-18T18:15:42Z")
It would show that you are a telepath _only_. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/3 "2010-06-18T18:20:40Z")
I should have included in the OP proofs for other phenomena, such as precognition, post-cognition, and clairvoyance. I can’t think of a test for post-cognition I find convincing, though. The nearest I can come to is that, if a person claimed to be both precognitive and postcognitive, and proved the former with sufficient rigor, I’d be inclined to believe the latter claim. I also should have included proof of the existence of ghosts, but I have even more trouble thinking of a convincing proof of that, especially once one grants the existence of telepaths as described in the OP. **Czarcasm** , care you to explain your position? (Not that I disagree with it; I just want to hear your thoughts.) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/4 "2010-06-18T18:22:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It would show that you are a telepath _only_. Agreed. In some ways it makes the existence of other supernatural phenomenon even _less_ probable, since it effectively means you possess the capability to forge evidence that might otherwise be perceived as being evidence of those phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/5 "2010-06-18T18:25:03Z")
Right. Telepathy I could imagine having some kind of material explanation. Pre-cognition and clairvoyance less so. Ghosts (however demonstrated) would at least force open the possibility of some kind of continued extra-physical existence, though I don’t know if you’d get all the way to God from there. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/6 "2010-06-18T18:27:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **Czarcasm** , care you to explain your position? (Not that I disagree with it; I just want to hear your thoughts.) One incredible breakthrough does not make valid all other incredible claims. It would be like saying that _if_ I were able to invent a perpetual motion device, we must now accept that faster-than-light travel is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/7 "2010-06-18T18:32:23Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Agreed. In some ways it makes the existence of other supernatural phenomenon even _less_ probable, since it effectively means you possess the capability to forge evidence that might otherwise be perceived as being evidence of those phenomenon. I’m not sure that’s true. Telepathy can obviously be used to fake post-cognition, but I’m sure tests for precognition and clairvoyance could be constructed with sufficient rigor to rule out telepathy. Alternatively, telepathy might be a special case of clairvoyance. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > One incredible breakthrough does not make valid all other incredible claims. It would be like saying that _if_ I were able to invent a perpetual motion device, we must now accept that faster-than-light travel is possible. I dunno. How dependent is the theory of relativity on the validity of the laws of thermodynamics? (Not a rhetorical question, by the way. Somebody hit the **Chronos** signal.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/8 "2010-06-18T18:35:29Z")
Telepathy, telekinesis, precognition, clairvoyance - none of those prove supernatural entities exist, or even suggest that they do except in that they prove there are to-date unknown types or fields of energy that is usable to transmit/recieve these signals that interact with your mind and/or matter, and every new energy field must be inspected to see if there’s a diety or the like cowering hidden under the carpet. A proper medium would be the way to go in proving the existence of supernatural entities. Preferably they’d be able to summon up any deceased person’s spirit at will, to appear visibly to all observers and interact clearly enough to be definitively recognized and impart unlimited verifiable private information. Then, if these spirits describe an afterlife with a God (or if the medium can _summon_ God), then that would be fairly definitive evidence that God exists too. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/9 "2010-06-18T18:36:10Z")
I wouldn’t consider any such demonstration proof of the supernatural - just the need for an expansion of what we call natural. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/10 "2010-06-18T18:41:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I wouldn’t consider any such demonstration proof of the supernatural - just the need for an expansion of what we call natural. Well, that’s why I specified “demonstration of the paranormal.” Though I kinda think precognition, violating causality as it does, would be more supernatural than telepathy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/11 "2010-06-18T18:43:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > A proper medium would be the way to go in proving the existence of supernatural entities. \*\* Preferably they’d be able to summon up any deceased person’s spirit at will,\*\* to appear visibly to all observers and interact clearly enough to be definitively recognized and impart unlimited verifiable private information. Then, if these spirits describe an afterlife with a God (or if the medium can _summon_ God), then that would be fairly definitive evidence that God exists too. I think the bolded qualification is unreasonable. Even if we stipulate that it’s possible that some consciousnesses survive physical death, that doesn’t mean that all do, or that all are subject to the medium’s will. I mean, some spirits might hear the summons and say “Screw that–I’m watching Natalie Portman shower right now.” ---
**Author:** ![nilum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ed8c4c/32.png) [@nilum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nilum)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/12 "2010-06-18T18:47:25Z")
I don’t get this post. You’re saying in a fictional scenario you prove you’re telepathic. Then you if that proves ghosts are real? What connection does telepathy and ghosts have besides Hollywood movies starring Patrick Swayze and Whoopi Goldberg. Even though we perceive many things to be in the category of ‘supernatural’ that doesn’t mean they’re all related. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/13 "2010-06-18T18:48:16Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Well, that’s why I specified “demonstration of the paranormal.” Though I kinda think precognition, violating causality as it does, would be more supernatural than telepathy. It doesn’t violate causality; it would disprove nondeterminism (and many people’s conceptions of free will). > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think the bolded qualification is unreasonable. Even if we stipulate that it’s possible that some consciousnesses survive physical death, that doesn’t mean that all do, or that all are subject to the medium’s will. I mean, some spirits might hear the summons and say “Screw that–I’m watching Natalie Portman shower right now.” I did say “preferably”. And obviously _extreme_ failure on this front is cause for doubt, “I can only call up Sybil.” ---
**Author:** ![Haunted\_Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/94ad74/32.png) [@Haunted\_Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haunted_Pasta)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/14 "2010-06-18T18:48:54Z")
I’ve posted this link before, but the proof of the existence of ghosts is [this video](http://poetv.com/video.php?vid=23562). The ghostly figure that shows up around the 30-second mark is plain as day, and there is NO WAY this is CGI or camera trickery. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/15 "2010-06-18T18:50:55Z")
> [@nilum](#): > > I don’t get this post. > > You’re saying in a fictional scenario you prove you’re telepathic. Then you if that proves ghosts are real? I’m not saying that at all. I’m ASKING IF ANYONE ELSE THINKS THAT. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/16 "2010-06-18T19:08:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I dunno. How dependent is the theory of relativity on the validity of the laws of thermodynamics? > > (Not a rhetorical question, by the way. Somebody hit the Chronos signal.) Hm… I know of no particular relationship between relativity and the Second Law, but we’re talking about the First Law, here. By Noether’s Theorem, conservation of energy is equivalent to the laws of physics being invariant in time (even if different conditions apply at different times, the same laws describe those conditions). While a time variance of the laws of physics can be consistent with a lack of preferred reference frames, it’d certainly call that into doubt, and if you have a preferred reference frame, then relativity goes out the window. Back to the OP, I’d say that once we’ve established the existence of telepathy, then the logical next step is to investigate the mechanism of it. Such investigation might or might not lead to conclusions about other paranormal or supernatural phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![nilum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ed8c4c/32.png) [@nilum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nilum)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/17 "2010-06-18T19:10:25Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not saying that at all. I’m ASKING IF ANYONE ELSE THINKS THAT. … what’s the difference between what you said and what I said. > [@](#): > > Then you [ask] if that proves ghosts are real? If I could edit my posts I would. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/18 "2010-06-18T19:17:09Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Imagine, if you will, that I am a genuine telepath of the Charles Xavier type: I can read and cast thoughts over a limited distance, as well as probing another person’s memories. My brain’s obviously better than average, so no non-telepath can prevent me from using my power, any more than the average unarmed couch potato can stop David Hayes from skipping to the front of the line at the DMV if he feels like it. For practical purposes, I am constrained in the use of my telepathy mostly by my personal ethics. > > Now let’s say I decide to prove that to a pair of skeptics, Bruce & Terry, who know and trust one another The three of us gather in a small room of their choosing, which they may check in any way they please for surveillance devices. Bruce & Terry bring three pens and three pads of paper with them, which they have acquired themselves. After searching me for any sort of communication device they position me so that I cannot see them. Once they are satisfied that I cannot peek, they each take a pad and pen and write a message to the other. I have the third pad, and using my telepathy I read their thoughts so that I can copy what they have written. We all compare our pads, and my copy matches theirs. We repeat this enough times and with enough variation and rigor (say, adding blindfolds, moving to different locations, etc) to convince them of my bona fides. > > So I’m a genuine telepath. That’s verified. Does that say anything about the existence of souls, the afterlife, God, or gods? Why or why not? No, because you’ve proven you at best have a mind reading ability, but even a mind reading ability can have a natural explanation. Maybe you just have an electrical field sensing organ, like a fish. Maybe yours is just a really advanced version that can feel neurological signals. Further let’s be really generous though. Let’s say it’s completely eithoric. Well you can control it, and it has certain repeatable affects. Therefore it obeys certain rules. Those rules can be tested through experiment, and become another field of natural science. For example in X-men Xavier built a giant computer to amplify his mental powers. If his powers didn’t follow natural laws he wouldn’t have been able to do that. Take modern technology. We’ve built an honest to god electric oracle (the internet), we can fly, we can see sights on mars, and travel 80mph, we have machines that heat food without fire. I can talk to anyone, including strangers all over the world. I can have an orchestra in my pocket. In short we live as wizards in a super natural world, except we don’t. All technology runs on natural laws. Discovering a new phenomenon such as telepathy would be very exciting, but even if existing known natural law was insufficient to explain it it’d merely be indicative of unexplored natural law. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/19 "2010-06-18T19:18:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Hm… I know of no particular relationship between relativity and the Second Law, but we’re talking about the First Law, here. By Noether’s Theorem, conservation of energy is equivalent to the laws of physics being invariant in time (even if different conditions apply at different times, the same laws describe those conditions). While a time variance of the laws of physics can be consistent with a lack of preferred reference frames, it’d certainly call that into doubt, and if you have a preferred reference frame, then relativity goes out the window. I knew you’d know. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693/20 "2010-06-19T03:15:46Z")
> [@Haunted\_Pasta](#): > > I’ve posted this link before, but the proof of the existence of ghosts is [this video](http://poetv.com/video.php?vid=23562). The ghostly figure that shows up around the 30-second mark is plain as day, and there is NO WAY this is CGI or camera trickery. After viewing it, I must admit I’m pretty much convinced of the reality of the events shown. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-paranormal-phenomena-if-demonstrated-to-be-true-would-you-consider-proof-of-the-supernatural/543693.md?page=2)