# What parts of the Bible ban homosexuality? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128 "2009-03-11T21:02:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/1 "2009-03-11T21:02:56Z")
There is “man will not lie with man…” in one part, and there is the whole nuking a city cause its full of gays in another. (Sodom) Are there any other references? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/2 "2009-03-11T21:24:48Z")
You may find this site helpful: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom\_bibl.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm) In particular, that page’s [first link](http://www.religioustolerance.org/homglance.htm) lists the Bible passages most commonly cited as condemning homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/3 "2009-03-11T21:40:08Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > There is “man will not lie with man…” in one part, and there is the whole nuking a city cause its full of gays in another. (Sodom) > > Are there any other references? There’s not that many of them, from what I’ve heard there’s three main references to homosexuality. Most of my knowledge on this just comes from the article ‘Homosexuality in the Bible’ on Wikipedia and from what I’ve heard before. The first reference is in Leviticus which you mention (it’s actually two separate references): > [@](#): > > Man shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22) > > If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Leviticus 20:13) The second and third are in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians and Romans respectively, > [@](#): > > ‘Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.’ > 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 > > ‘For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.’ > Romans 1:26-27 Apparently there’s arguments against all of them: with regard to Leviticus there’s the classic argument that Jesus superseded most of the Old Testament laws and so they no longer apply, including the law about homosexuals. In the Corinthians case the word used for ‘homosexuals’ can supposedly mean ‘homosexual prostitutes’ or ‘traders of homosexual prostitutes’ instead, so that it doesn’t actually condemn homosexuality. In the Romans passage it’s been argued that the writer isn’t condemning homosexuals but only heterosexuals who switch over to homosexuality. Both of those explanations sound pretty desperate; I think it’s quite clear, unfortunately, that in both the Old and New Testaments homosexuality is explicitly condemned (although not by Jesus or the Gospels). One other passage which probably doesn’t refer to homosexuality but is interesting nonetheless is in Kings: > [@](#): > > “When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD. Then he got on the bed and lay on the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out on him, the boy’s body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out on him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes.” > **2 Kings 4:32-35** ‘Oh… you’ve walked in on me. Well it’s not what it looks like! He was, er, dead, you see. By lying on him I’ve warmed him back to life… it’s a miracle!’ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/4 "2009-03-11T21:48:14Z")
Oh and with regard to Sodom, it’s not at all clear that it was destroyed because the people in the city were homosexual. The Sodomites were described as being immoral; when strangers come to Lot’s house they demand that they’re send outside so they can ‘meet’ them; Lot tries to send his daughters out to be raped instead. But a lot of commentators have argued, fairly plausibly, that the sin here is not showing enough respect for strangers spending the night in the city, rather than homosexuality. There’s certainly never any other mention of sexual immorality in the chapter, and the idea of ‘sodomy’ being another word for anal sex wasn’t introduced until ages further along in history. Ezekiel later in the Bible says: > [@](#): > > “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." > **- Ezekiel 16:49-50** ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/5 "2009-03-11T21:58:34Z")
My understanding is it’s a violation of the 1st commandment, which is the most important one according to Jesus, which stated briefly is Love God above all [QUOTE=Romans 1] 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 **They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.** Amen. [/quote] Here is man slipping away from placing God first, and the consequences: > [@](#): > > 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. > > 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. This refers to those who put God in a position which He is not first in their life. But: [QUOTE=1Cor6] 12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. [/QUOTE] [quote=“The\_Great\_Philosopher, post:3, topic:489128”] When one follows Jesus, he dedicated his life to the Lord, the Lord gets to use his body, and whatever he does God will turn for the good. As such I can see a case be made for having a homosexual relationship if the intent is to serve God in reaching the lost. But the desire to serve God must be first, not the lust. This is the freedom from the law that Jesus offers, as everything is permissible must mean what it says. > [@The Great Philosopher](#): > > ‘Oh… you’ve walked in on me. Well it’s not what it looks like! He was, er, dead, you see. By lying on him I’ve warmed him back to life… it’s a miracle!’ 🙂 Re: > [@](#): > > “When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD. Then he got on the bed and lay on the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out on him, the boy’s body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out on him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes.” > 2 Kings 4:32-35 I’ve experienced this personally, it is not sexual, but Love of God flowing through one person to another that can call the soul back into the body. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/6 "2009-03-11T22:03:52Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > In the Romans passage it’s been argued that the writer isn’t condemning homosexuals but only heterosexuals who switch over to homosexuality. Both of those explanations sound pretty desperate; I think it’s quite clear, unfortunately, that in both the Old and New Testaments homosexuality is explicitly condemned (although not by Jesus or the Gospels). You’re right that the New Testament does condemn homosexuality, but few people look at the passages in context. In Romans, other signs of immorality listed along with homosexuality include lying and disobeying your parents. Furthermore, the very next verses (2:1-2) after these condemnations, Paul says “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.” In Corinthians, the previous context discourages lawsuits between believers, ending with “Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong and you do this to your brothers.” It follows with a section on how everything may be permissible, but it is not necessary good for you, with particular emphasis on sexual immorality of all kinds. So it’s wrong, but not more wrong than whatever it is you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/7 "2009-03-11T22:04:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’ve experienced this personally, it is not sexual, but Love of God flowing through one person to another that can call the soul back into the body. You’ve brought a dead body back to life? Or been brought back to life yourself? Either way that’s quite a feat. Perhaps you’re a prophet like Elisha? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/8 "2009-03-11T22:07:22Z")
[Acts 15](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&version=31) states that _all_ sexual immorality is forbidden, but doesn’t specify what that means specifically. For arguments that, for instance, stoning homosexuals actually referred to homosexual acts in the Temple, I think you would need to look back in history to see how the earliest churches interpreted it. That homosexuality has been popularly deemed sinful until modern day by Christianity, for as far as I am aware, I would generally assume that the church understood these phrases to be banning homosexuality, but it could indeed have been a misreading that grew in popularity. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/9 "2009-03-11T22:16:50Z")
[Homosexuality and religion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality#Abrahamic_religions) More info ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/10 "2009-03-11T23:07:03Z")
There is also a story in the New Testament of Jesus affirming a gay couple, told in both Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10, and referred to in the Communion section of every Mass. This is the story of the Roman Centurion whose young lover is sick and dying, and so the centurion goes to Jesus asking him to intercede. Jesus offers to go to the centurion’s house to heal him, but the centurion says there is no need, “simply say the word, and he shall be healed”. Jesus then praises the faith of this centurion, and says he should be seen as an example by others. And of course, he heals the centurion’s sick lover. Unlike modern fundamentalist preachers, Jesus doesn’t say that the sickness is “God’s punishment” on this gay couple; he just heals the sick one so they can continue their relationship. Jesus never says any words condemning gay people, just his actions here in healing them. And they say actions speak louder than words,. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/11 "2009-03-11T23:26:13Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > There is also a story in the New Testament of Jesus affirming a gay couple, told in both Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10, and referred to in the Communion section of every Mass. > > This is the story of the Roman Centurion whose young lover is sick and dying, and so the centurion goes to Jesus asking him to intercede. “Young lover”? Which translation are you using?? ---
**Author:** ![cuberdon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@cuberdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuberdon)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/12 "2009-03-11T23:26:14Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > There is also a story in the New Testament of Jesus affirming a gay couple, told in both Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10, and referred to in the Communion section of every Mass. Can you provide a cite for this? I looked at the Matthew passage in all the English language versions available on [BibleGateway.com](http://BibleGateway.com) and nearly all refer to the centurion and his servant or slave. One says “young man”, another one or two say “child”. None say “lover”, that I saw. Note, I am not a biblical scholar, nor do I know Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc, so I am not familiar with the overtones of the exact vocabulary used in the original. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/13 "2009-03-11T23:28:21Z")
beaten to the comment again ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/14 "2009-03-11T23:41:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > “Young lover”? Which translation are you using?? The literall term used is _pais_, literally “boy,” which was common parlance for “servant” as in the Old South, and also leads to the reading tbonham gave. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/15 "2009-03-11T23:44:07Z")
> [@LouiseE](#): > > Can you provide a cite for this? I looked at the Matthew passage in all the English language versions available on [BibleGateway.com](http://BibleGateway.com) and nearly all refer to the centurion and his servant or slave. One says “young man”, another one or two say “child”. None say “lover”, that I saw. The term used in the Greek is _pais_, which means “boy”. The thing is, in ancient Greek, you can use the word to refer to an actual boy (with no sexual content involved), to a slave, or to a boy that you’re schtupping. So, recently, some gay friendly theologians have interpreted it the third way. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/16 "2009-03-11T23:44:59Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > Oh and with regard to Sodom, it’s not at all clear that it was destroyed because the people in the city were homosexual. The Sodomites were described as being immoral; when strangers come to Lot’s house they demand that they’re send outside so they can ‘meet’ them; Lot tries to send his daughters out to be raped instead. But a lot of commentators have argued, fairly plausibly, that the sin here is not showing enough respect for strangers spending the night in the city, rather than homosexuality. There’s certainly never any other mention of sexual immorality in the chapter, and the idea of ‘sodomy’ being another word for anal sex wasn’t introduced until ages further along in history. Ezekiel later in the Bible says: In fact, as your Ezekiel quote shows, it’s either **not** the cause, or one of the “iniquities” allluded to at the end of the quote – not even significant enough to be enumerated like the selfishness and love of luxury at the expense of others. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/17 "2009-03-12T00:41:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The term used in the Greek is _pais_, which means “boy”. The thing is, in ancient Greek, you can use the word to refer to an actual boy (with no sexual content involved), to a slave, or to a boy that you’re schtupping. So, recently, some gay friendly theologians have interpreted it the third way. Matthew uses _pais_, with the meanings Captain Amazing gave (except that the first one is generally used for ‘my boy’, i.e. a son). Luke uses _entimos doulos_, which is translated to ‘honored servant’ or ‘special servant’. (and servant/slave are interchangeable here). And then when talking about other servants/slaves (“when I tell my slave to do something…”) Luke uses just _doulos_ (‘servant/slave’), but when talking about this specific sick person he uses _pais_ (‘boy’). So between Matthew and Luke, we can see that the young man the centurion asks Jesus to heal is: - not literally his son. - not just a servant/slave like others in the household. So that would seem to leave the third meaning of the term as the most likely one. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/18 "2009-03-12T02:33:05Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > So between Matthew and Luke, we can see that the young man the centurion asks Jesus to heal is: > > - not literally his son. > - not just a servant/slave like others in the household. > So that would seem to leave the third meaning of the term as the most likely one. Except not neccesarily, which is the problem. Look at Luke 12:45 > [@](#): > > 4But suppose the servant [who the master put in charge of the other servants] says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. In that case, the special servant who’s singled out in the parable is just _doulos_, while “the menservants and maidservants” in general are _paidas_ amd _paidiskas_. So it’s not neccesarly true that _pais_ means that (and it’s been suggested that it’s the other way around…that _pais_ is used to describe a low ranking slave. Or, the two words could just be synonyms. It’s one of those things that’s still debated. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/19 "2009-03-12T02:52:05Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > There is “man will not lie with man…” in one part, and there is the whole nuking a city cause its full of gays in another. (Sodom) Except that the consensus among Jewish scholars for centuries has been that Sodom and Gammorah were destroyed for the sin of being without kindness. There are Jewish folktales that show just how cruel to strangers these people were. The average rabbi regards homosexuality as a sin, but not the sin that two cities were destroyed for. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128/20 "2009-03-12T12:50:58Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Except that the consensus among Jewish scholars for centuries has been that Sodom and Gammorah were destroyed for the sin of being without kindness. There are Jewish folktales that show just how cruel to strangers these people were. The average rabbi regards homosexuality as a sin, but not the sin that two cities were destroyed for. From Romans 1 24-32 and Eph 4 18-20 is sexually immorality and homosexuality is a result of hardening of the heart and darkening of understanding (living outside the will of God) causes the perversions. It IMHO is a way to deal with cruelty imposed on a person, lust is a stand in for the true love these people are seeking. A way of dealing of living in a world that appears to show them no love. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-parts-of-the-bible-ban-homosexuality/489128.md?page=2)