# What percentage of straight men would rape women under "ideal" circumstances? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688 "2010-01-12T18:34:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/81 "2010-01-14T16:04:31Z")
I said between 26% and 50%. There’s already an awful lot of rape even when the social costs of it can be extremely high, if you take away that limiter then it’s certain to be higher. Economic theory is really human behavior theory. There’ve been quite a few posters indignantly proclaiming that they could never, ever be even physically capable of doing it…well, I’ll be the token evil male and state the opposite. I’m certain that I could rape someone, given some mythical set of ‘ideal circumstances’ that grind away the varnish of civilization, and there’s enough talk in the American male social conditioning, even in seemingly innocuous places like the Boy Scouts, that I’m obviously not a unique snowflake in this regard. Then there’s the seamy underbelly of the internet, which brings us not only hordes of ravenous fantasy rapists but an equal (or possibly even larger) amount of people eager to fantasize about _being_ raped. The monkey brain is a curious thing. Sex and violence is unquestionably linked, and it doesn’t taken more than a token glance across entertainment media for proof. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/82 "2010-01-14T16:04:45Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > Out of curiosity, what if she had the same amount of drinks in your scenario but you only had 1 for the night? If she were a stranger, then no way. And then progressively based on how well I know her. It’s _not_ and issue of “it’s okay to rape people you know,” but it _is_ an issue of knowing whether she’s capable of making a decision or not based on how buzzed you know her to be. There’s a point that it becomes rape; but I can’t answer your question conclusively because I don’t know who we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/83 "2010-01-14T16:22:13Z")
> [@Mekhazzio](#): > > I said between 26% and 50%. There’s already an awful lot of rape even when the social costs of it can be extremely high, if you take away that limiter then it’s certain to be higher. Economic theory is really human behavior theory. > > There’ve been quite a few posters indignantly proclaiming that they could never, ever be even physically capable of doing it…well, I’ll be the token evil male and state the opposite. I’m certain that I could rape someone, given some mythical set of ‘ideal circumstances’ that grind away the varnish of civilization, and there’s enough talk in the American male social conditioning, even in seemingly innocuous places like the Boy Scouts, that I’m obviously not a unique snowflake in this regard. > > Then there’s the seamy underbelly of the internet, which brings us not only hordes of ravenous fantasy rapists but an equal (or possibly even larger) amount of people eager to fantasize about _being_ raped. The monkey brain is a curious thing. Sex and violence is unquestionably linked, and it doesn’t taken more than a token glance across entertainment media for proof. Those of us who answer otherwise aren’t necessarily merely expressing a _moral_ repugnace or proclaiming moral superiority - it is also that rape isn’t ‘our thing’. Same with pedophilia. I can imagine myself being an evil bastard and doing stuff _worse_ than rape, or rape plus pedophilia, if the motive was there; but I (and I suspect most guys) just aren’t into that. It just fails to turn our cranks. BDSM fantasies aren’t really indicative of an actual desire to rape or be raped. The important thing about BDSM is that it is all based on fantasy - mutual consent is the very basis for folks enjoying it. In my case at least, even stripping away any notions of empathy for others and assuming I’m completely amoral if not positive immoral, the reason is I suspect that one of the important and central gratifications from sex is the notion that others find one desireable. Sex that is forced not only fails to provide that gratification, it actively harms the ego. Who wants an experience that reinforces the notion that one is _loathsome_? I can’t think of anything more of a boner-killer than that. Add to that the fact that most guys have at least some degree of empathy for others and the fact that, even if they don’t, most in our society at least are conditioned to act as if they do … ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/84 "2010-01-14T16:31:46Z")
> [@Mekhazzio](#): > > I said between 26% and 50%. There’s already an awful lot of rape even when the social costs of it can be extremely high, if you take away that limiter then it’s certain to be higher. Economic theory is really human behavior theory. > > There’ve been quite a few posters indignantly proclaiming that they could never, ever be even physically capable of doing it…well, I’ll be the token evil male and state the opposite. I’m certain that I could rape someone, given some mythical set of ‘ideal circumstances’ that grind away the varnish of civilization, and there’s enough talk in the American male social conditioning, even in seemingly innocuous places like the Boy Scouts, that I’m obviously not a unique snowflake in this regard. What circumstances do you think those would be? Someone posted here about how under the right circumstances they would probably commit assault or murder, and in a lot of situations–self defense, the horrors of war and all that, one might have to. But it’s not like you ever HAVE to rape. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/85 "2010-01-14T16:39:38Z")
I had to pick that you left out the obvious choice. That choice is 0%. I’ve been in the ideal situation many times in college. I never crossed my mind. I’ve been on the verge of getting laid when she became just too incoherent to do anything. It never crossed my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/86 "2010-01-14T18:48:58Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > I had to pick that you left out the obvious choice. That choice is 0%. I’ve been in the ideal situation many times in college. I never crossed my mind. I’ve been on the verge of getting laid when she became just too incoherent to do anything. It never crossed my mind. It can’t be 0%, because it’s a fact that there are rapists. This poll isn’t about _your_ percentage chance of raping someone. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/87 "2010-01-14T18:58:28Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > It can’t be 0%, because it’s a fact that there are rapists. This poll isn’t about _your_ percentage chance of raping someone. I guess I missunderstood the poll. Thank goodness too, because I was really concerned about the answers others were giving.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/88 "2010-01-14T20:28:18Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > What the heck are “ideal circumstances,” anyway? I want to know “what the heck is ‘rape’”. It’s still not clear to me. If you say that the man has to know he’s harming the woman, then it’s 1% to 10%. If you say that it counts even if the man thinks he’s not harming anyone (e.g. We were half naked and about to do it when she passed out) then I think it’s like 35%. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/89 "2010-01-14T20:38:47Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I want to know “what the heck is ‘rape’”. It’s still not clear to me. If you say that the man has to know he’s harming the woman, then it’s 1% to 10%. If you say that it counts even if the man thinks he’s not harming anyone (e.g. We were half naked and about to do it when she passed out) then I think it’s like 35%. But couldn’t you argue that there are situations where a reasonable man would know it was rape but the rapist chooses not to see it that way? Like…wouldn’t a reasonable person see a passed out person as incapable of consent? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/90 "2010-01-14T20:47:06Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But couldn’t you argue that there are situations where a reasonable man would know it was rape but the rapist chooses not to see it that way? Like…wouldn’t a reasonable person see a passed out person as incapable of consent? Not to mention it being _gross_. I mean, having sex with someone passed out - even for “evil me” - is just eeew. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/91 "2010-01-14T21:04:35Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But couldn’t you argue that there are situations where a reasonable man would know it was rape but the rapist chooses not to see it that way? Like…wouldn’t a reasonable person see a passed out person as incapable of consent? Yes. Then, there’s a lot of unreasonable people; I regard the person who thinks “Sex with an unconscious woman doesn’t count as rape because she didn’t say no” as the mirror image of the people who think sex is rape if the woman doesn’t sign a consent form. Clearly people don’t agree on what consent means; for example I personally would regard it as consent if a woman started kissing me, groping me and pulling her clothes off even if she never said “Yes, I formally consent to sex”. Some people would call that rape however. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/92 "2010-01-14T21:32:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes. Then, there’s a lot of unreasonable people; I regard the person who thinks “Sex with an unconscious woman doesn’t count as rape because she didn’t say no” as the mirror image of the people who think sex is rape if the woman doesn’t sign a consent form. > > Clearly people don’t agree on what consent means; for example I personally would regard it as consent if a woman started kissing me, groping me and pulling her clothes off even if she never said “Yes, I formally consent to sex”. Some people would call that rape however. Yeah. I think as it becomes murkier you get more and more people who are more likely to commit rape. Like, if a woman says no and protests for a while and gives in–murkier than just seeing an unconscious woman and raping her. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/93 "2010-01-14T21:51:16Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah. I think as it becomes murkier you get more and more people who are more likely to commit rape. Like, if a woman says no and protests for a while and gives in–murkier than just seeing an unconscious woman and raping her. Considering that women are perfectly capable of changing their minds or moods, that may well not be rape at all ( I presume that force or threats are not being used, mind ). Men can’t read minds. If a man talks a woman who initially said “no” into having sex, that’s persuasion; seduction. Not rape. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/94 "2010-01-14T21:52:38Z")
I figure 1 or 2 percent of the male population are outright psychopaths, who, by definition, have no moral qualms about doing anything that brings them pleasure if they’re reasonably sure they won’t get caught. And another 3 or 4 percent, maybe, are the worst fratboy-types who lose control when they’ve had too many. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/95 "2010-01-14T22:01:39Z")
I have a difficult time comprehending how a rapist maintains an erection when their victim is showing signs of repulsion and fear. I think being wired in such a way that these things don’t matter is pathological and limited to a relatively small minority of men. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/96 "2010-01-14T22:16:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And I’d add that if on top of that you add browbeating, strongarming, tricking, blackmailing, peer pressuring, mind games etc… in order to get the woman to give a consent she doesn’t really mean, deliberately throwing away everything but that half-hearted “…ok”, you can add ~30 more percents. This sounds like you’re saying (not “you are saying”, but it sounds like you’re saying) that if we water down the definition of “rape” far enough we can include just about every sexual encounter as a “rape”. I mean c’mon… “mind games”? “Mind games” make a rape? That’s Dworkin-esque feminist philoslphy which I think (hope?) has been thoroughly debunked and discredited on this board. As for actual rape rape? I voted less than 10% of males, but I suspect it’s less than 5%. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/97 "2010-01-14T23:28:39Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I want to know “what the heck is ‘rape’”. It’s still not clear to me. If you say that the man has to know he’s harming the woman, then it’s 1% to 10%. If you say that it counts even if the man thinks he’s not harming anyone (e.g. We were half naked and about to do it when she passed out) then I think it’s like 35%. Hmm, what percent of child molesters convince themselves they’re doing no harm or that the kid came onto them? Not to equate women with children, but I think some people have warped perspectives, and they’re not necessarily all psychopaths. ETA Dworkin gets bashed a lot on the Dope, quoted out of context and taken to represent all of feminism, but I actually think she has some good points in [this 1983 speech](http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIIE.html). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/98 "2010-01-14T23:32:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Considering that women are perfectly capable of changing their minds or moods, that may well not be rape at all ( I presume that force or threats are not being used, mind ). Men can’t read minds. If a man talks a woman who initially said “no” into having sex, that’s persuasion; seduction. Not rape. I think it gets kind of murky and creepy at least if it’s two people and the guy asks if they can have sex but she responds no, and then finally she stops saying anything and he either receives no answer (or just doesn’t ask) and starts having sex. If she has been saying no and is basically worn down, I think a lot of guys would consider that all well and good, but a lot of women might consider it if not rape, more than bad sex. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/99 "2010-01-14T23:41:58Z")
The trick is to assume that the state of the vagina is off-limits until you’re convinced otherwise, just as many men might do with their own assholes. Thinking you’ve got a default right to sex is not a great way to go about things. It would also be nice if people wanted _enthusiastic_ consent, and I don’t even mean that from a legal point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688/100 "2010-01-14T23:54:39Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I want to know “what the heck is ‘rape’”. It’s still not clear to me. If you say that the man has to know he’s harming the woman, then it’s 1% to 10%. If you say that it counts even if the man thinks he’s not harming anyone (e.g. We were half naked and about to do it when she passed out) then I think it’s like 35%. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But couldn’t you argue that there are situations where a reasonable man would know it was rape but the rapist chooses not to see it that way? Like…wouldn’t a reasonable person see a passed out person as incapable of consent? There appear to be a lot of rapists who do not understand that they did in fact harm their victims, even when any reasonable person would recognize the situation as a clear-cut case of violent stranger rape. Many of these rapists seem to consider a woman who eventually stops struggling to be the same thing as a woman who freely consents to sex. I’m going to quote myself here from a [GQ thread last month](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11863010): > [@False rape claims - what are the real statistics?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-claims-what-are-the-real-statistics/520433/28): > > There have been studies of convicted rapists indicating that these men often believe (or at least claim) that their victim was consenting. This is true not merely in “date rape” situations, but in cases where the rapist did not know his victim and used a weapon to subdue her. > > In Diana Scully and Joseph Marolla’s “Convicted Rapists’ Vocabulary of Motive: Excuses and Justifications” (_Social Problems_, Vol. 31, No. 5, Jun., 1984, pp. 530-544), 32 out of 114 convicted rapists who were interviewed in the study said that they had engaged in sexual acts with the victim but denied that it had been rape. (Another 35 denied having anything to do with the victim, and 47 admitted that they had committed rape.) But these men’s descriptions of the situation were inconsistent with both victim statements and the police reports – they often left out the fact that they’d pulled a weapon on the victim, that they had seriously injured the victim, or claimed that they knew the victim when they did not – and even in their own words many of these men would sound like rapists to any reasonable person. > > Several admitted that their victims had either said “no” or resisted physically, but said they knew the victim had “really” wanted it. One man told a fanciful story about how his victim had stripped off her clothes and enthusiastically invited him to have sex with her – while he was (by his own admission) robbing her home! Of the 32 who said that what they had done wasn’t rape, 22 claimed that “once the rape began, the victim relaxed and enjoyed it”. Even with the convicted rapists who admitted to the researchers that what they had done was rape, 9 of 47 claimed that the victim had enjoyed the experience. > > So for some significant number of rapists, it seems that there’s no way for a victim to be “explicit enough”. The rapist chooses to believe that the victim is consenting and having a good time, and the fact that she struggled, said “no”, and/or had to be subdued with a weapon is, in the rapists mind, irrelevant. One “denier” said “All women say ‘no’ when they mean ‘yes’”. This was a man who kidnapped and raped a 15 year old girl at knifepoint. One of the “admitters” said it had taken him years to realize that what he had done really was rape, saying “I just asked her nicely and she didn’t resist.” This may technically have been true, but it was also true that he didn’t merely ask her nicely, he “used a bayonet to threaten his victim, an employee of the store he had been robbing.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-straight-men-would-rape-women-under-ideal-circumstances/524688.md?page=6)