# What percentage of the Democratic voter's identify themselves as socialists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673 "2018-08-15T18:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/21 "2018-08-16T01:20:17Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > We’ll never be a Denmark like society. Socialism may work when it’s a homogenous society with a relatively low population and resources are shared. You know saying “a homogenous society” is just code for “doesn’t have black people” right? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/22 "2018-08-16T02:12:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You know saying “a homogenous society” is just code for “doesn’t have black people” right? Depends on the speaker. You can correlate homicide rates to metrics of “How frequently one, in their daily life, is likely to encounter someone of a different race, religion, or culture”. So if given in that technical sense then a homogenous society is correlated to lower homicide rates, but (if I recall correctly) so is a highly heterogenous society. It’s the transition zone where things get awkward. Modern day America is no stranger to White attacks on Asians, for example. But that aside, I’ll leave to it others to decide whether they think Silver Lining is giving an evidence based and color blind response, or not. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/23 "2018-08-16T02:29:07Z")
I blame the Republicans. They and their cohorts have been calling Democrats socialists for so long, people are starting to think “Hey, why not vote for the real thing?” I will say that when automation/computerization and market consolidation (think one Amazon vs. hundreds of bookstores or one “Turbotax” vs. hundreds of accountants) have driven the structural effective unemployment to 20+%, I fully expect to see advocates of classic free-market capitalism swinging from lampposts. (Note, I do not encourage this generally speaking, but do reserve the right to do so on a case-by-case basis.) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/24 "2018-08-16T02:57:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every American politician has been tolerating socialism, in some forms, for decades. Yes the problem here is that the Democrats are starting to lose their tolerance for capitalism. Not good. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/25 "2018-08-16T03:05:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > This is sort of the fault of Republican branding. When Obama was trying to get universal healthcare passed, many Republicans cried “socialism!” When Medicare was passed, they cried “socialism!” Funding pre-K care…socialism! Family leave…socialism! > > So, voters listened and said, well, I like those things, so I guess I have a positive view of socialism. I doubt many or any voters who identify as Democrats are for the state ownership of property, for example. It’s just that many parts of the social safety net have been decried as socialism, and so voters may have a positive view of that. > > OP, how do you think socialism is defined in these voters minds? Something like a strong safety net, a Denmark-like society? Or, state ownership of property, or something close to Venezuela or Cuba? Denmark is more capitalist than the US, along with the UK, Canada, Estonia, and Sweden. > **[Index of Economic Freedom](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom)** > > The Index of Economic Freedom is an annual index and ranking created in 1995 by The Heritage Foundation and The Wall Street Journal to measure the degree of economic freedom in the world's nations. The creators of the index assert that they take an approach inspired by Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, that "basic institutions that protect the liberty of individuals to pursue their own economic interests result in greater prosperity for the larger society".\[page needed\] > The Heritage Foundat... ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/26 "2018-08-16T03:49:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Depending on definition, they’ve been tolerating it anywhere from 0 to 100 years. > > The oldest definitions of the term would seem to encompass the following values: > > 1. No government > 2. Everyone is equal > 3. No one has any personal property > > I think it’s fair to say that if you’re trying to square that with modern day definitions, which span the range from this original sort of meaning to hardline Conservatism in some countries to massive social nets in other countries, that you’re basically just wasting everyone’s time. Using a word that has no generally accepted definition to describe your platform is useless and just gets you compared to the USSR. > > Silver Lining, whatever the number may be of those who identify as Socialist, there are in reality only a handful and the rest are Democrats that don’t understand words, not Socialists. That’s more anarcho-communism, with the exception of 3, almost all (Marx-school) communists value **pesonal** property, but not **private** property. The USSR was state capitalism (the leadership themselves said this), with some socialist policies and, theoretically, attempting to transition to true socialism and eventually Communism. Though you’re right that there are a lot of schools of socialism (including democratic socialism, which is just “friendly capitalism”) and people are just going to associate it with things like the USSR, right or not. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/27 "2018-08-16T04:06:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Denmark is more capitalist than the US, along with the UK, Canada, Estonia, and Sweden. > > [Index of Economic Freedom - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom) It would be interesting to see Silver Lining reply to this, but will he? I predict more poorly interpreted polls. ---
**Author:** ![sweepkick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@sweepkick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweepkick)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/28 "2018-08-16T04:18:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes the problem here is that the Democrats are starting to lose their tolerance for capitalism. Not good. I’m not sure about that. I believe Dems are losing their tolerance for _Unfettered and unregulated_ capitalism, and the cronyism that is inherent in the system. And that’s a good thing. I don’t know many Democrats who believe that we need to scrap capitalism altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/29 "2018-08-16T04:21:30Z")
Others already said it all, but I’ll chime in anyway. 1. Virtually nobody under 40 remebers the USSR. We don’t have the constant pounding in our heads that statism is horrible. 2. Most people have seen the excesses of capitalism firsthand. Big companies get a tax cut, and then they lay off workers and use the money for stock buybacks. Climate change and pollution are serious issues. Constant layoffs. Income inequality. Economic collapse due to deregulation. People can’t afford education and health care while 95% of the economic growth goes to the top 1%. Corporations tell the government what to do. 3. The right has degraded the meaning of socialism. Many democrats probably believe in social democracy, which is capitalism with a high degree of regulation, social welfare state and progressive taxation. The nordic model. I would doubt most democrats believe in true state ownership of all industries. However, state ownership of certain industries is superior to private ownership (military, mail service, prisons, education, health care, infrastructure, ISPs, etc). The left probably means a mixed economic system (state ownership of some industries, private ownership of other industries) and social democracy. I think every nation that adopted pure socialism or pure communism ended up abandoning it. Of the 5 communist countries left (North Korea, China, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba) I believe they all abandoned communist economics and started seeing GDP growth after they did. Or at least all but Cuba (Cuba may still be communist). The real debate is laissez faire capitalism vs social democracy. Most democrats are social democracy believers. TL;DR - Many people are not afraid to be called ‘socalist’ by older people who support Trumpism, plutocracy and libertarianism. If anything, their disapproval is a badge of honor, not something to run away from. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/30 "2018-08-16T04:27:50Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > For the USA voter who identifies with being socialists, I think it’s a collection of has not’s. Lower education types, people who don’t think they can move up the economic ladder because they are either unqualified or too lazy to work their way up, so they hear the Karl Marx redistribution of wealth speech, rebranded with 2018 lingo and say to themselves, that will help me. Yes, I’m a socialists. That form of socialism will never work. > > We could be seeing a split between primary Democratic voters, those who identify with being a socialists, want many things for free, paid for by those in capitalism, and those who want a larger percentage of the tax revenue going to socially funded programs, but support capitalism. Liberalism is positively correlated with education. > **[A Wider Ideological Gap Between More and Less Educated Adults](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/04/26/a-wider-ideological-gap-between-more-and-less-educated-adults/)** > > Republicans and Democrats are more divided along ideological lines than at any point in the previous two decades. But there are also growing ideological divisions along educational and generational lines. Liberals, as a class, tend to be educated and financially stable. I would assume they are also among the biggest proponents of social democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/31 "2018-08-16T05:01:55Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I think every nation that adopted pure socialism or pure communism ended up abandoning it. Of the 5 communist countries left (North Korea, China, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba) I believe they all abandoned communist economics and started seeing GDP growth after they did. Or at least all but Cuba (Cuba may still be communist). > The real debate is laissez faire capitalism vs social democracy. Most democrats are social democracy believers. > > TL;DR - Many people are not afraid to be called ‘socalist’ by older people who support Trumpism, plutocracy and libertarianism. If anything, their disapproval is a badge of honor, not something to run away from. No country has ever been Communist, at least not by the standard Marxist definition, which requires a lack of a state. Those countries generally don’t, AFAIK, claim to be Communist so much as target Communism as their end goal (theoretically, ostensibly). Most of them are socialist, but have a Communist party. That is, the workers own the means of production via their control over the state (granted, pretty much all these regimes have been authoritarian so this is often very illusory), which is socialist, but the Communist party in control of the country is working to move that socialism to true directly democratic, communally owned resources. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/32 "2018-08-16T05:07:42Z")
Take for instance Venezuela, a socialist country whose official party is Communist, which started legally recognizing Communes. A good book on this is [Bulding the Commune: Radical Democracy in Venezuela](https://www.amazon.com/Building-Commune-Radical-Democracy-Venezuela/dp/1784782238/ref=pd_sim_14_1/135-4416668-1516616?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1784782238&pd_rd_r=GFHNDGKMEM214N2NWSY3&pd_rd_w=71le1&pd_rd_wg=jdkZM&psc=1&refRID=GFHNDGKMEM214N2NWSY3&dpID=41KBrTK9PfL&preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=detail), which attempts to explore the small directly democratic communes that sprung up in Venezuela and their attempts to flourish underneath the rather authoritarian Socialist regime they’re under. The book tries to be realistic about the pros and cons, but I find it a little too fluffy to Chavez. As a counterpoint I also recommend [Venezuela: Revolution as Spectacle](https://www.amazon.com/Venezuela-Revolution-Spectacle-Rafael-Uzcategui/dp/1884365779) which contextualizes Venezuela and the entire Bolivarian Process as just another state subservient to greater powers, and not the progress it was made out to be by many leftists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/33 "2018-08-16T05:44:39Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The real debate is laissez faire capitalism vs social democracy. Most democrats are social democracy believers. The real debate is just how much regulation we should have. No one of consequence in American politics advocates pure “laissez faire capitalism” just as no one of consequence advocates pure Marxist style Socialism (or Communism). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/34 "2018-08-16T06:04:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The real debate is just how much regulation we should have. No one of consequence in American politics advocates pure “laissez faire capitalism” just as no one of consequence advocates pure Marxist style Socialism (or Communism). I don’t agree. People pushing for libertarianism are a political force in the US. There is nothing on the left that is comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/35 "2018-08-16T07:43:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes the problem here is that the Democrats are starting to lose their tolerance for capitalism. Not good. People are pragmatic. If they feel a system isn’t working for them, they’ll abandon it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/36 "2018-08-16T09:51:43Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > … **57%** of Democrats have a positive view of socialism compared to just a **47%** favorable view of capitalism. > … **vast majority** of the voters in the USA prefer capitalism. [my emphasis] I won’t offer an opinion on the OP’s question or facts, but unless he thinks a “vast majority” of voters in the USA are NOT Democrats, then I’m afraid his thesis may be arithmetically unsound. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/37 "2018-08-16T10:26:10Z")
> [@sweepkick](#): > > I’m not sure about that. I believe Dems are losing their tolerance for _Unfettered and unregulated_ capitalism, and the cronyism that is inherent in the system. And that’s a good thing. > > I don’t know many Democrats who believe that we need to scrap capitalism altogether. I hope you’re right. Unfortunately, Bernie Sanders and his facile neophytes do not really make these distinctions. They envy the 1% because they are very rich. Many rich people got rich while not engaging in unethical behavior. > [@Alessan](#): > > People are pragmatic. If they feel a system isn’t working for them, they’ll abandon it. There is nothing pragmatic about rejecting capitalism, a system that has lifted a majority of the globe out of subsistence living in merely 200 years, much of that occurring in just the last 50. Look at AD100. Look at 1800. Look at 2018. A pragmatic person can only come to one conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/38 "2018-08-16T10:35:15Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t agree. People pushing for libertarianism are a political force in the US. There is nothing on the left that is comparable. Witness the growth of government in the last 20 years. There has to be some force that is countering the mighty libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/39 "2018-08-16T11:01:46Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I hope you’re right. Unfortunately, Bernie Sanders and his facile neophytes do not really make these distinctions. They envy the 1% because they are very rich. My goodness, a mind reader! That’s an impressive trick! Quick, which 19th-century philosopher am I thinking of? > [@](#): > > Many rich people got rich while not engaging in unethical behavior. Even assuming that this is true, it’s still [basically immoral to be rich](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/10/more-evidence-that-extreme-wealth-is-totally-indefensible). Those hundreds of millions of dollars could be spent saving countless lives… Or on turning Lanai into a private island. These are not morally equivalent actions, and the failure to choose well amounts to a massive opportunity cost, a cost measured in dead children. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/40 "2018-08-16T11:12:57Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > the vast majority of the voters in the USA prefer capitalism. We could be seeing a shift further left. Your link in no way supports “the vast majority of the voters in the USA prefer capitalism.” Please don’t paraphrase your cites in such a blatantly false fashion. As for a shift further left, let’s talk on November 7. Your lips, god’s ears. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that and slavery. I know, right? If “capitalism” means “import millions of people to be chattel slave labor” and “exterminate people living on the excellent farmland in order to own it yourself” and “give insanely huge tracts of land away to railroad companies,” and “socialism” means “making sure everyone has access to medical care” and “making sure we can all afford to get the education we need to thrive in society,” I can see why folks are starting to warm up to socialism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673.md?page=3)