# What percentage of the Democratic voter's identify themselves as socialists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673 "2018-08-15T18:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/61 "2018-08-16T14:35:36Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Let’s look at the Definition of socialism > > 1 > : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods > > 2 > a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property > b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state > > 3 > : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done > There is a very good chance these polled Democratic voters are just undereducated. But the majority them have favorable views toward socialism according to the poll. > > Asking how it is defined in the voter’s mind is a very difficult question to answer, and worthy of further exploration. > > It’s logical to assume many Democrats in the millions actually know what socialism is by definition and are for it. A scary thought. I know some myself. It’s also logical to assume many don’t have a clue what the word is but associate it with free governmental giveaways to them. I agree that we can’t read the minds of people responding to the poll. I disagree that it’s likely that they have that textbook definition of socialism in mind – I think they have in mind what Republicans have been calling “socialism” for decades – for example, universal healthcare, Social Security, Medicare. I’m surprised that you know people who call themselves socialists and want to pursue that textbook definition of socialism. This is big bait and switch. Republican politician: Medicare is socialism! Voter: Oh, really? I guess I like socialism. Republican politician: So, you want the government to control the means of production! You’re anti-capitalist. Voter: Huh? And, with that, I think no further productive conversation will be had. Almost every person in this thread agrees that those polled were going with a lay definition of “socialism”, basically social democracy, strong safety net, not the government controlling the means of production. You, however, seem to be pursuing the big bait-and-switch, and this won’t be a production conversation for me. RS ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/62 "2018-08-16T14:37:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No it is not immoral. When someone turns a profit it is simply a signal that the person has taken low value inputs and transformed them into high value outputs. It is in this way that the legitimately rich have created wealth in society. Sorry, there is nothing immoral about providing people with goods and services that are purchased voluntarily. > > Even if the rich person spends lavishly on, say, a yacht. The people that work for the yacht company do hardcore manual labor. They are not rich, but they get by thanks to yacht purchases. > > Even if the rich put money into investments, they are providing funds for companies that need capital to expand and serve consumers better through increased services or efficiencies. > > Even if the rich hold cash in a bank account, they are providing funds to capitalize the bank, which employs people and directs loanable funds. > > Even if the rich put it under the mattress, it harms nobody. Prices are not bid up to the extent they would be if the funds entered the economy. > > So no. Making money is not immoral. Spending money is not immoral. Investing money is not immoral. Sleeping on money is not immoral. > > The idea that wealth is immoral is a religious one that was thankfully fought off long enough for capitalism to thrive. It is coming back again in the form of the Democratic Party it seems. I don’t mind people being rich. I wish _more_ people were rich. I think that the country would be better off if for every billionaire we had a thousand millionaires instead. Paper your bathroom wall with hundred dollar bills, jump stark naked into a vat full of ice cold Roosevelt dimes, if that’s your thing. But it doesn’t end there, does it? Fortunes, like any institution (and fortunes are institutions) take on a life of their own and the first principle of life is self-preservation. Fortunes become gravity wells attracting additional money. Then they seek to accrue power because money and power, like matter and energy, are interchangeable. And the first thing that is done with that power is to game the system to enable them to accrue more money, to the detriment of society as a whole. Lather, rinse, repeat. No, wealth is not immoral. But the accumulation of wealth past the point where it actually impacts a person’s lifestyle should be regarded as, if not morally questionable, at least in poor taste. Like cleaning one’s toenails in public. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/63 "2018-08-16T14:42:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This is true of any system. Capitalism thrives on social trust, but it also engenders social trust. Socialism does ok in a society with social trust, but it erodes social trust. Exactly, and this is true even of the milder European forms. No one likes to work when they suspect that other people who could be working are just getting a free ride. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/64 "2018-08-16T14:45:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Exactly, and this is true even of the milder European forms. No one likes to work when they suspect that other people who could be working are just getting a free ride. “No one” is hyperbole. Happy and well adjusted people don’t care if others might be getting some benefits. We might take this into account in policy making – what public policies maximize happiness and social adjustment/contentment, and minimize bitterness and social maladjustment? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/65 "2018-08-16T14:51:31Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I don’t mind people being rich. I wish _more_ people were rich. I think that the country would be better off if for every billionaire we had a thousand millionaires instead. Paper your bathroom wall with hundred dollar bills, jump stark naked into a vat full of ice cold Roosevelt dimes, if that’s your thing. But it doesn’t end there, does it? Fortunes, like any institution (and fortunes are institutions) take on a life of their own and the first principle of life is self-preservation. Fortunes become gravity wells attracting additional money. Then they seek to accrue power because money and power, like matter and energy, are interchangeable. And the first thing that is done with that power is to game the system to enable them to accrue more money, to the detriment of society as a whole. Lather, rinse, repeat. > > No, wealth is not immoral. But the accumulation of wealth past the point where it actually impacts a person’s lifestyle should be regarded as, if not morally questionable, at least in poor taste. Like cleaning one’s toenails in public. I don’t understand how it is morally questionable unless the person chooses to do morally questionable things. There are plenty of immoral things someone can do if they are rich. There are plenty of immoral things someone can do if they are poor. That does not mean that being poor is immoral or morally questionable. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/66 "2018-08-16T14:55:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “No one” is hyperbole. Happy and well adjusted people don’t care if others might be getting some benefits. We might take this into account in policy making – what public policies maximize happiness and social adjustment/contentment, and minimize bitterness and social maladjustment? True. I think the policies that are the most popular are ones targeted at those who are in trouble through no fault of their own: unemployment compensation, disability, retirement benefits, that sort of thing. Programs that allow people who are lazy to be lazy aren’t going to be as popular. Even if the majority of recipients aren’t lazy. Which in the American system is almost certainly true. The European systems seem to encourage a little more idleness. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/67 "2018-08-16T15:11:33Z")
Any system is going to have cheaters. Capitalism has them, socialism has them. We do not abolish fire insurance because of the existence of arsonists. But one should ask which system has the greater potential for the individual to profit from cheating. Cheat the unemployment office, you get a few hundred bucks. Cheat the investors… ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/68 "2018-08-16T15:12:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t understand how it is morally questionable unless the person chooses to do morally questionable things. There are plenty of immoral things someone can do if they are rich. There are plenty of immoral things someone can do if they are poor. That does not mean that being poor is immoral or morally questionable. Being rich always gives you more options, that’s kind of the point. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/69 "2018-08-16T15:15:20Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Being rich always gives you more options, that’s kind of the point. Having more options is morally questionable? Baskin Robbins will be surprised to hear that. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/70 "2018-08-16T15:17:43Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Any system is going to have cheaters. Capitalism has them, socialism has them. We do not abolish fire insurance because of the existence of arsonists. But one should ask which system has the greater potential for the individual to profit from cheating. Cheat the unemployment office, you get a few hundred bucks. Cheat the investors… You also must consider which system incentivizes being wary of cheaters and catching them. If I’m an investor, I have incentive to deal with scrupulous men. If I’m a taxpayer, I have neither the time nor resources to find cheaters in and out of government. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/71 "2018-08-16T15:25:51Z")
Long response when I’m off my phone, but the short version is that opportunity costs are real. I don’t know how this is a difficult question. If I have the choice between saving hundreds of lives or buying a very large doghouse with plasma tvs and a spa and I choose the latter, I’m an evil motherfucker! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/72 "2018-08-16T15:48:34Z")
Actually, it’s really easy to find the cheaters in government. The problem comes when people vote for them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/73 "2018-08-16T15:49:15Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Long response when I’m off my phone, but the short version is that opportunity costs are real. I don’t know how this is a difficult question. If I have the choice between saving hundreds of lives or buying a very large doghouse with plasma tvs and a spa and I choose the latter, I’m an evil motherfucker! A large doghouse with TVs and a spa costs about 30k. Let’s say you can save 100 lives with that, taking the more conservative side of your claim. That’s $300 per life. You said you have a phone. It was probably at least $300. You could have saved a life, but you bought a phone. Are you evil? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/74 "2018-08-16T15:52:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The problem comes when people vote for them anyway. Yes. The mechanism for removing people from government is not effective. Market forces ensure very large corporations are not headed by an evil guy like Trump. If Tim Cook was as unpopular as Trump, the board would throw him out in a few hours. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/75 "2018-08-16T16:09:10Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Any system is going to have cheaters. Capitalism has them, socialism has them. We do not abolish fire insurance because of the existence of arsonists. But one should ask which system has the greater potential for the individual to profit from cheating. Cheat the unemployment office, you get a few hundred bucks. Cheat the investors… In a democracy, the people judge the relative risks and rewards. The welfare system pre-1996 encouraged idleness. Now it doesn’t, and welfare has become a very minor issue in elections, where before it was a top 10 issue. We also have laws against cheating investors, just like we do laws against people cheating the taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/76 "2018-08-16T16:10:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes. The mechanism for removing people from government is not effective. Market forces ensure very large corporations are not headed by an evil guy like Trump. If Tim Cook was as unpopular as Trump, the board would throw him out in a few hours. Heck, if Tim Cook said any one of fifty things Trump has said, he’d be out the next day. Tim Cook does an important job. Presidents, we hold those to lower standards. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/77 "2018-08-16T17:00:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > A large doghouse with TVs and a spa costs about 30k. Let’s say you can save 100 lives with that, taking the more conservative side of your claim. That’s $300 per life. You said you have a phone. It was probably at least $300. You could have saved a life, but you bought a phone. Are you evil? I was thinking about the 125kGBP one, but sure. There’s a case to be made for day-to-day expenses. I don’t know how to reconcile wanting nice things and living comfortably with a desire to help others. Bit then, I make enough to make rent, have a few gadgets, afford medical care when I need it. Jeff Bezos literally said he can’t think of anything to do with his m9ney other than go to space. Somewhere between “owns a house and car” and “tenth luxury yacht” , there is a point where this becomes obscene. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/78 "2018-08-16T18:21:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In a democracy, the people judge the relative risks and rewards. The welfare system pre-1996 encouraged idleness. Now it doesn’t, and welfare has become a very minor issue in elections, where before it was a top 10 issue. We also have laws against cheating investors, just like we do laws against people cheating the taxpayers. Laws are less of a problem when you own the lawmakers. And, Mr. Farnaby, what I meant earlier is that being rich gives one more options as to what sorts of immoral pursuits in which one might engage. And, given more options, the likelihood of engaging in immoral pursuits would seem to go up as there are more selections on the plate. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/79 "2018-08-16T23:08:14Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This is true of any system. Capitalism thrives on social trust, but it also engenders social trust. Socialism does ok in a society with social trust, but it erodes social trust. Well, that certainly settles _that_! A lifetime of working for social and political goals I deemed worthy, and it turns out I was wrong the whole time! Son of a gun! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/80 "2018-08-17T00:31:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The real debate is just how much regulation we should have. No one of consequence in American politics advocates pure “laissez faire capitalism” just as no one of consequence advocates pure Marxist style Socialism (or Communism). But a lot of people of consequence advocate policies which disproportionately reward the wealthiest of people in our society while essentially socializing the losses and punishing the middle and lower classes the hardest during recessions. Wealth and income inequality are at levels not seen since the 1920s. We know what happened then, and that’s not a coincidence. But while we’re waiting for the next depression, let’s just consider the consequences that this has on a free society. How free is a society in which fewer and fewer people decide how money flows through the “capitalist” economy? As an aside, just consider how corporations spend their money. They don’t pay higher wages. They certainly don’t pay higher taxes (they’ve seen to it that this doesn’t happen). They take profits and repay shareholders. Thus one of capitalism’s implicit promises, that left to its own devices it promotes the general welfare, is exposed as a sham. Let me be clear: I’m a devout capitalist. No system does a better job of generating wealth. Humans can’t outsmart the market when it comes to creating and growing wealth, as we see time and time again. But the market can’t outsmart humans when it comes to promoting the common welfare. This is where we need people to accept that some redistribution of capitalist gains is not just “fair” or good for our fuzzy feelings; it’s essential to secure democracy and liberty. A state in which power is disproportionately concentrated in so few hands isn’t free at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673.md?page=5)