# What percentage of the Democratic voter's identify themselves as socialists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 15, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673 "2018-08-15T18:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/81 "2018-08-17T14:03:46Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > But a lot of people of consequence advocate policies which disproportionately reward the wealthiest of people in our society while essentially socializing the losses and punishing the middle and lower classes the hardest during recessions. Wealth and income inequality are at levels not seen since the 1920s. We know what happened then, and that’s not a coincidence. > > But while we’re waiting for the next depression, let’s just consider the consequences that this has on a free society. How free is a society in which fewer and fewer people decide how money flows through the “capitalist” economy? As an aside, just consider how corporations spend their money. They don’t pay higher wages. They certainly don’t pay higher taxes (they’ve seen to it that this doesn’t happen). They take profits and repay shareholders. Thus one of capitalism’s implicit promises, that left to its own devices it promotes the general welfare, is exposed as a sham. > > Let me be clear: I’m a devout capitalist. No system does a better job of generating wealth. Humans can’t outsmart the market when it comes to creating and growing wealth, as we see time and time again. But the market can’t outsmart humans when it comes to promoting the common welfare. This is where we need people to accept that some redistribution of capitalist gains is not just “fair” or good for our fuzzy feelings; it’s essential to secure democracy and liberty. A state in which power is disproportionately concentrated in so few hands isn’t free at all. Well said. It’s all about balance, or perhaps to use a phrase from another context “dynamic tension”. > **[Dynamic Tension](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Tension)** > > "Dynamic Tension" is the name Charles Atlas gave to the system of physical exercises that he first popularized in the 1920s. > Dynamic Tension is a self-resistance exercise method which pits muscle against muscle. The practitioner tenses the muscles of a given body part and then moves the body part against the tension as if a heavy weight were being lifted. Dynamic Tension exercises are not merely isometrics, since they call for movement. Instead, the method comprises a combination of exercises in... ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/82 "2018-08-18T18:39:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post > Let’s look at the Definition of socialism > > 1 > : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods > > 2 > a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property > b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state > > 3 > : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done > There is a very good chance these polled Democratic voters are just undereducated. But the majority them have favorable views toward socialism according to the poll. > > Asking how it is defined in the voter’s mind is a very difficult question to answer, and worthy of further exploration. > > It’s logical to assume many Democrats in the millions actually know what socialism is by definition and are for it. A scary thought. I know some myself. It’s also logical to assume many don’t have a clue what the word is but associate it with free governmental giveaways to them. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I agree that we can’t read the minds of people responding to the poll. I disagree that it’s likely that they have that textbook definition of socialism in mind – I think they have in mind what Republicans have been calling “socialism” for decades – for example, universal healthcare, Social Security, Medicare. I’m surprised that you know people who call themselves socialists and want to pursue that textbook definition of socialism. > > This is big bait and switch. Republican politician: Medicare is socialism! Voter: Oh, really? I guess I like socialism. Republican politician: So, you want the government to control the means of production! You’re anti-capitalist. Voter: Huh? > > And, with that, I think no further productive conversation will be had. Almost every person in this thread agrees that those polled were going with a lay definition of “socialism”, basically social democracy, strong safety net, not the government controlling the means of production. You, however, seem to be pursuing the big bait-and-switch, and this won’t be a production conversation for me. > > RS I sense some fear in this topic from the left. Not a bait and switch. I think the voters know enough about the language and definitions. But like you said we can’t read the reminds of the voters, so how do you know if they are going with a lay definition of the word? -SL ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/83 "2018-08-18T18:41:31Z")
Not much fear. More boredom. And annoyance. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/84 "2018-08-18T18:41:52Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > I think the voters know enough about the language and definitions. What makes you think that? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/85 "2018-08-18T19:45:39Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > I sense some fear in this topic from the left. Not a bait and switch. > > I think the voters know enough about the language and definitions. > > But like you said we can’t read the reminds of the voters, so how do you know if they are going with a lay definition of the word? > > -SL Why do you think voters know that much about arcane technical definitions of economic theories? Which do you think is higher, the number of voters who have read Das Kapital, or the number who heard [McCain say that Obama](http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/19/nation/na-campaign19) wants socialism? When McCain said that, do you think he meant that Obama wanted the government to control the means of production, and that Obama wanted there to be no private property? Or, is McCain using it wrong, too? Let’s try to read the mind of McCain, since we can’t read that of voters. Which definition was McCain using, the one that I posted or more like the social democracy of, say, Denmark? If he meant the one that I posted, do you think he was being sincere and really believed that Obama wanted the US to be like Venezuela or Cuba? Here are my answers, in case that helps: 1. I don’t think voters know that much about arcane tech definitions of econ theories. 2. I think more voters heard McCain than have read Das Kapital. 3. I think McCain was doing the same bullshit bait and switch – he meant social democracy but wanted to imply that Obama was for actual socialism. 4. I think McCain was using it wrong or doing the same bait and switch. For my last question, he was either being disingenuous or lying, because he never really believed that Obama wanted to get rid of private property or nationalize all industries. I’m not afraid. Sorry to disappoint. However, I don’t appreciate your crack about sensing fear at all and I think it doesn’t nothing for this conversation except poison the well. I’m trying to debate you honestly and you’re throwing ridiculous generalizations around. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/86 "2018-08-18T20:44:28Z")
I have affectionate nostalgia for old fashioned lefty culture. Tom Joad, the Weavers, “Red Diaper Babies”. The charmingly naive notion that working class Germans would not go to war with working class Frenchies. “Socialism” belongs with that, it is too muddled with history to have a clear and distinct definition. Any group of lefties either ignore the word or argue about what it precisely means, righties have no such problem, they just know its Bad. I remember when I first read that all of Scandinavia would collapse into smoking ruin in a matter of months. Because, as everybody knows, socialism is impossible. Fifty years, now? OK, lets accept that, and the result is that whatever they are doing isn’t socialism. Because they are mostly doing pretty well. We want more justice and equality, in a general sense and a specific emphasis on material well being. We on the conservative wing of the extreme left prefer a method of compromise and negotiation. By a happy coincidence, these are precisely the engines of an egalitarian democracy. Lucky us, huh? So, we enter negotiations, we start with demanding English as a second language programs for gay whales, we hoot, holler and demand. Then we grudgingly compromise for more education and medicine. We, of course, promise _never_ to ask for anything else _ever_ again, so help us Alinsky. And set immediately to the task of doing exactly that. Everybody gets something, nobody wins. Everybody is grumpy but nobody dies. Trouble is, of course, that it is a tedious and tiresome course. Anything that demands patience is gonna be a tough sell. We can call it whatever you like, so long as you don’t pretend you are defining something. But to continue to insist that its the same thing as it ever was, as if Sweden never happened is like defining modern medicine in terms of mud and leeches. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/87 "2018-08-18T21:06:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I remember when I first read that all of Scandinavia would collapse into smoking ruin in a matter of months. Because, as everybody knows, socialism is impossible. Fifty years, now? Oh, but that’s different. As any conservative can tell you, it only works there because they don’t have any black people. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/88 "2018-08-18T22:45:15Z")
Most people see capitalism and socialism as competing forces. They pick sides and hope for the other system to be irrevocably destroyed. But let’s be honest. The great American middle class was _built_ on programs that, fairly speaking, should be termed “socialistic”. (At least that what Republicans called every darned one of them at the time they were first under consideration.) I don’t see them as competing, I view them as _complementary_. Capitalism to generate wealth (which it does quite well). Socialism to take the rough edges off. Like two great wolves keeping each other at bay. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/89 "2018-08-18T23:18:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Not much fear. More boredom. And annoyance. “Much boredom. Very annoyance. No fear.” - Doge Simo ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/90 "2018-08-19T00:01:09Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > I sense some fear in this topic from the left. Not a bait and switch. > > I think the voters know enough about the language and definitions. > > But like you said we can’t read the reminds of the voters, so how do you know if they are going with a lay definition of the word? > > -SL Sanders is an avowed Socialist. Can you point me to his position statements that match your definition of socialism? When Democrats these days think of socialism, they are thinking of what in Europe are Social Democratic positions. If for partisan reasons you don’t want to admit that the word means something different in the US today, that’s your problem. And to repeat what others have said over and over, calling social democratic policies socialist just improves the reputation of the term socialist. You can blame the right for that. ---
**Author:** ![Aescwynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Aescwynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aescwynn)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/91 "2018-08-19T00:06:18Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Others already said it all, but I’ll chime in anyway. > > 1. Virtually nobody under 40 remebers the USSR. We don’t have the constant pounding in our heads that statism is horrible. > > 2. Most people have seen the excesses of capitalism firsthand. Big companies get a tax cut, and then they lay off workers and use the money for stock buybacks. Climate change and pollution are serious issues. Constant layoffs. Income inequality. Economic collapse due to deregulation. People can’t afford education and health care while 95% of the economic growth goes to the top 1%. Corporations tell the government what to do. > > 3. The right has degraded the meaning of socialism. Many democrats probably believe in social democracy, which is capitalism with a high degree of regulation, social welfare state and progressive taxation. The nordic model. I would doubt most democrats believe in true state ownership of all industries. However, state ownership of certain industries is superior to private ownership (military, mail service, prisons, education, health care, infrastructure, ISPs, etc). The left probably means a mixed economic system (state ownership of some industries, private ownership of other industries) and social democracy. I think every nation that adopted pure socialism or pure communism ended up abandoning it. Of the 5 communist countries left (North Korea, China, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba) I believe they all abandoned communist economics and started seeing GDP growth after they did. Or at least all but Cuba (Cuba may still be communist). > The real debate is laissez faire capitalism vs social democracy. Most democrats are social democracy believers. > > TL;DR - Many people are not afraid to be called ‘socalist’ by older people who support Trumpism, plutocracy and libertarianism. If anything, their disapproval is a badge of honor, not something to run away from. “We all too often have socialism for the rich and rugged free market capitalism for the poor.” - Martin Luther King Jr. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/92 "2018-08-21T02:23:28Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Well said. It’s all about balance, or perhaps to use a phrase from another context “dynamic tension”. > > [Dynamic Tension - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Tension) Just to be clear, I am not a “socialist”. I don’t want people like Maduro or Ergodan or Putin trying to outsmart the market -they will fail (miserably) every freaking time. But l’aissez faire economics has also failed. It failed in the early 1900s, and it will fail for us again. And the shit part about it is that this country will be left to actually consider socialism as an alternative to capitalism, because they will be comparing the ideals of imagined socialism to the realities of dark capitalism. The optimal solution is to fix capitalism so that it has social benefits. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/93 "2018-08-21T16:39:05Z")
“We are all socialists now” Ronald Reagan while spinning in his grave. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673/94 "2018-08-21T18:24:48Z")
I swear, some of these guys have led sheltered lives, never once met a red-blooded, flag-waving, All-American radical lefty! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-democratic-voters-identify-themselves-as-socialists/819673.md?page=4)