# What percentage of the populace is gay or bi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685 "2005-05-20T02:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/1 "2005-05-20T02:40:29Z")
And is there any significant difference between genders? ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/2 "2005-05-20T02:56:18Z")
How do you tell? You have to define your categories. Self-reporting is not reliable. There is no magic lab test. Beware, this is one of those areas where people throw around numbers they got from their Ouija board. ---
**Author:** ![TJdude825](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@TJdude825](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJdude825)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/3 "2005-05-20T03:01:08Z")
**mks57** is right, but last time this was asked, I seem to remember there was a vague consensus that the number was about 10%. (No cite.) ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/4 "2005-05-20T03:09:46Z")
Actually, I think the figure most typically quoted here is lower, around 3-5%. (If one defines homosexual men as those who engage in anal sex, we are constantly reminded that the figure would be much lower yet.) Of course, the really intersting questions are whether the figure is uniform across different socio-economic groups in the US, and, lest I be accused of occidentocentrism, across all nations. If homosexuality were largely biological (genetic and gestational), one would expect the answer to be ‘yes’, _ceteris paribus_, i.e. leaving aside the ‘mechanical’ problems of self-reporting, self-selection, etc. in the sampling process. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/5 "2005-05-20T03:44:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Let us consider the following data from a study of a representative sample of the U.S. adult population (Laumann et al. 1994; Michael et al., 1994) > > Persons with same-sex feeling: 6 percent of men; 4 percent of women > Persons who have ever engaged in same-sex behavior: 9 percent of men; 4 percent of women > Persons with gay or lesbian self-identification: 2.8 percent of men; 1.4 percent of women > > Most of these numbers fall significantly below the 10 percent that gay activists have long cited from Kinsey’s classic studies as the proportion of gays and lesbians. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, Kinsey found that 10 percent of the U.S. adults were “predominantly” or “more or less exclusively homosexual.” However, he discovered that only 2.5% were “exclusively homosexual” which is quote similar to the proportion of today’s Americans identifying themselves as gay or lesbian, even though the people in Kinsey’s survey were not a representative sample of the U.S. adult population (Voeller, 1990; Kinsey et al., 1953, 1948). Nonetheless, the real number of gays and lesbians must be higher than 2.5% becuase the homophobia in our society discourages identifying oneself as “homosexual,” particularly among young people with same-sex orientations. Page 255-256, Deviant Behavior, Thio A lot of it depends on what you define gay or bi as but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/6 "2005-05-20T04:06:52Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Actually, I think the figure most typically quoted here is lower, around 3-5%. (If one defines homosexual men as those who engage in anal sex, we are constantly reminded that the figure would be much lower yet.) > > Of course, the really intersting questions are whether the figure is uniform across different socio-economic groups in the US, and, lest I be accused of occidentocentrism, across all nations. If homosexuality were largely biological (genetic and gestational), one would expect the answer to be ‘yes’, _ceteris paribus_, i.e. leaving aside the ‘mechanical’ problems of self-reporting, self-selection, etc. in the sampling process. 😕 Why would anyone define homosexual men as men who engage in anal sex? That’s obviously wrong for two reasons. And, of course, the problem is you can’t leave aside the problem of self-reporting and self-selection…which one would imagine would be the very thing that would vary from one socio-econmic or cultural group and another. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/7 "2005-05-20T04:14:36Z")
“However, he discovered that only 2.5% were ‘exclusively homosexual’ which is quite similar to the proportion of today’s Americans identifying themselves as gay or lesbian, even though the people in Kinsey’s survey were not a representative sample of the U.S. adult population.” “Nonetheless, the real number of gays and lesbians must be higher than 2.5% because the homophobia in our society discourages identifying oneself as ‘homosexual’, particularly among young people with same-sex orientations.” No ‘must’ about this at all, if, as the author asserts, that 2.5% figure was boosted by the fact that the survey was not representative. I think this belongs in GD. Have emailed mods as such. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/8 "2005-05-20T04:55:32Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I think this belongs in GD. Have emailed mods as such. Different studies with different numbers is still factual. Until such time as people start arguing that one study is **more** correct than others, it still seems a factual representation even if necessitating a “but this may be off plus or minus depending on whether x is more likely or whether y is and what you make of that.” Do any of these studies indicate the likelyhood of male homosexuality vs. female? ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/9 "2005-05-20T07:12:53Z")
Unfortunately, I don’t think any studies done in this day or age will give a true percentage of the populace. As other posters have mentioned, the stigma of homosexuality that still exists will cause underreporting. At the University of Cincinnati, they do an anonymous survey of the students who take Human Sexuality and they found that 10% had engaged in homosexual activites. The 10% has been noted again in many other studies and it is estimated that 10% of the US population has had a same sex experience, if not more. Studying our relatives in the animal kingdom might give us some clue as to ‘natural’ human sexual inclinations. Bonobos and Chimps are our two closest relatives. Bonobos are bisexual and about half of all sexual interaction is same sex with the females being especially interested in same sex activities. Chimps are less sexual than bonobos and white I don’t know the rate of female homosexuality I do know it has been observed and is practiced. Males engage in homosexual activies about 1/3rd of the time. From an anthropological perspective, humans seem to be basically bisexual. There are individuals who have a strong preference to heterosexuality or homosexuality, but there have been too many widespread cultures were bisexuality was a norm for it to be merely sociological. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/10 "2005-05-20T07:16:52Z")
If a man kisses a woman on the cheek would that count as heterosexual activity? Likewise, if, as happens in some cultures, a man kisses another man on the mouth, would that count as homosexual activity? Problems galore here… ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/11 "2005-05-20T07:37:06Z")
[This](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=306415) was the latest thread on the subject I think. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/12 "2005-05-20T10:34:36Z")
I’m moving this to Great Debates. One of the more difficult questions to answer without getting derailed. **samclem** GQ moderator ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/13 "2005-05-20T12:25:54Z")
You can’t discount those that never engage in sexual activity of any kind and still identify as hetero or homosexual either. Sexuality is impossible to measure, and it doesn’t/shouldn’t matter anyway. It is but one aspect of a person’s being. If we continue to make sexuality (for this discussion, _who you do and how you do “it”_) a determining factor in any matters related to civil rights, wouldn’t it follow that you could then make all aspects of the “mating dance” up for vote also? Soul kissers in this column, thin-lipped granny kissers over there. Caressers and fondlers at the front of the line, all of the Wam-Bam-Thank-you-Ma’am types to the rear. Lights-on couples get the good table at restaurants. Lights-off types will be seated near the kitchen. And don’t even get me started on the man-on-man ass-slapping out there. Can I now assume they’re gay as well? I mean, where do you draw the line? I don’t give a good goddamn about what the bible says about sexuality (if, in fact, it says anything at all). There are too many aspects of it and too many shades within each aspect for a “rule” to be even remotely meaningful. Here’s the one rule about sexuality that I’ve found useful throughout my life: I don’t tell you what to do between the sheets, and you don’t tell _me_ what to do. I think if we all follow that rule, I think we’ll get along just fine. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/14 "2005-05-20T13:22:40Z")
> [@betenoir](#): > > 😕 Why would anyone define homosexual men as men who engage in anal sex? That’s obviously wrong for two reasons. If you do some research, you will find that the religious right (and many conservatives in more general terms) is quite adamant about keeping the percentage as low as possible, so perhaps that definition has one of those groups as a source. While I don’t think it matters how few or how many people are gay, you’ll find them arguing the numbers down in just about any way they can (in fact, you can see the correlation in some threads here if you do some searching). To be fair, many gay rights organizations seem to go in the opposite direction with the numbers. The only reason for this I can come up with is that the conservatives want everyone to think that it’s a very rare thing, thus less “normal”, or that their proposals only affect a very few people. I doubt you’ll get them to admit that they are arguing it lower versus just “seeking the truth”, so you’ll not likely get an answer from them as to the “why” of the issue. The gay rights types want us to think just the opposite. The actual number? Probably somewhere between the two. I still don’t think the actual number makes any difference, as our policies should be the same whether they comprise 50% or .0005% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/15 "2005-05-20T14:20:18Z")
Not to mention that sexual attraction is a range. Some people are purely heterosexual. Some are purely homosexual. Some have had a hetero or homosexual experience, but prefered the other side. Some don’t care what, as long as it’s sex. And some find one person of the ‘wrong’ sex really does it for them, despite being mostly hetero or homosexual. If, for example, I found Johnny Depp incredibly sensual and if he hit on me would love a kiss from his lips… am I homosexual? If I married a woman and had three children with her, but am truly more attracted to men, am I heterosexual? If I had a fling one night with a woman in college, am I heterosexual? If I had a fling one night with a man in college, am I homosexual? Where do you draw what line? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/16 "2005-05-20T17:00:23Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > If one defines homosexual men as those who engage in anal sex . . . Then my partner and I are just two heterosexual men who happen to have “non-homosexual” sex, exclusively with each other for almost 18 years. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/17 "2005-05-20T17:06:01Z")
The OP is asking about “gay or bi,” which means the entire population that is anything less than 100% straight. Which means everyone who has ever had any attraction whatsoever to a person of one’s own gender. I’d say that number is a whole lot larger than most people realize. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/18 "2005-05-20T20:04:20Z")
The Wikipedia has an article that looks at the question from various aspects – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_sexual\_orientation:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation:) > [@](#): > > Modern survey results > > _The factual accuracy of the final paragraph below and the presentation of statistical summaries in the following section is disputed._ > > Smith’s 2003 analysis of National Opinion Research Center data [1] ([http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/issues/American\_Sexual\_Behavior\_2003.pdf](http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/issues/American_Sexual_Behavior_2003.pdf)) states that 4.9% of sexually active American males had had a male sexual partner since age 18, but that “since age 18 less than 1% are [exclusively] gay and 4+% bisexual”. In the top twelve urban areas however, the rates are double the national average. > Smith adds that “It is generally believed that including adolescent behavior would further increase these rates,” with Turner et al.(1997) finding that in a computer questionnaire 5.5% of adolescents 15 to 19 reported same-sex activity. (Science, 280 (5365): 867) > The European rates corroborate the figure of 4.9%, though when broader criteria are used (including manual contact) the rates almost triple, to 13.4% (Netherlands). > > A 1998 survey by Christopher Bagley and Pierre Tremblay gave a figure of 15.3% of men who “reported being homosexual to some degree” including “overlapping homosexual (5.9%) and/or bisexual (6.1%) self-identification”. [2] ([http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list\_uids=9736328&dopt=Abstract](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9736328&dopt=Abstract)) > > The NHSLS survey reported an incidence of male homosexuality of 4.9% “over the last 18 years” [3] ([http://cloud9.norc.uchicago.edu/faqs/sex.htm](http://cloud9.norc.uchicago.edu/faqs/sex.htm)) > > In 1993 the Alan Guttmacher Institute (“a nonprofit organization focused on sexual and reproductive health research, policy analysis and public education” [4] ([http://www.guttmacher.org/](http://www.guttmacher.org/))) found 1.8 to 2.8 percent of men reported a sexual contact with another male within the last ten years. > > In general, surveys quoted by anti-gay activists tend to show figures nearer 1%, while surveys quoted by gay activists tend to show figures nearer 10%, with a mean of 4-5% figure most often cited in mainstream media reports. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/19 "2005-05-20T20:27:29Z")
**Roger** , sexual orientation is not defined by behavior but by attraction. You never have to kiss a girl to be a heterosexual. The activity is completely beside the point. It’s hard to gauge a percentage of people with sexual attractions to those of their own sex (and not necessarily exlusive attarctions) because we have to rely so heavily on self-reporting and self-reporting is inherently unreliable. How many married guys are eager to admit they’ve ever jerked off thinking about a guy? How many have probably done it? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685/20 "2005-05-20T22:16:57Z")
My guess is we’ll never have accurate numbers until nobody feels uptight about the results, in which case doing a careful survey will be about as interesting to the general populace as what brand of toothpaste redheads prefer. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-percentage-of-the-populace-is-gay-or-bi/304685.md?page=2)