# What piece would you recommend as a 'starter opera' for a newcomer to Opera? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 1, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926 "2009-03-01T22:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/21 "2009-03-02T19:48:51Z")
So many decisions! If you want to go the G&S route, I’d just as well suggest Pinafore over Pirates. I think it’s a far better show. Even better, Trial By Jury. It’s short, sweet, and musically brilliant. If you want something meatier, try (Verdi’s) Otello. It’s quite possibly the most perfect opera. And it has the perfect operatic plot. Boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl, then everyone dies. A “greatest hits” CD might be a good idea, if it has selections from Die Walkier. That’s what originally drew me in to opera. ---
**Author:** ![Westrogothia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@Westrogothia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Westrogothia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/22 "2009-03-02T19:55:53Z")
My first “opera” was the Magic flute. It impressed the hell out of a eight year old boy at least. The plot is redicolous and the tunes are catchy. It might not be great opera but damn its entertaining. Its a great place to start before diving into the heavier stuff. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/23 "2009-03-02T20:04:24Z")
_La Boheme_. As I’ve said many times, it has starving artists in love, Paris, TB–what more do you want? 😃 _Carmen_. Also good and has at least three melodies that are quite well-known. ETA: YouTube has a wealth of opera clips. Go there and listen to samples from all operas mentioned in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/24 "2009-03-02T20:14:39Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > If you want something meatier, try (Verdi’s) Otello. From your spoiler, it sounds quite Wagnerian. 🙂 We have spoilers for opera? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/25 "2009-03-02T20:26:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > From your spoiler, it sounds quite Wagnerian. 🙂 Yeah, well, as Beverly Sills so astutely observed, there is no such thing as puppy love in opera. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/26 "2009-03-02T20:32:42Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > [Quote=carnivorousplant] > > From your spoiler, it sounds quite Wagnerian. Yeah, well, as Beverly Sills so astutely observed, there is no such thing as puppy love in opera. [/QUOTE] Which is why I think G&S don’t qualify as opera. Loads of fun, yes, and classics in their own right, but I don’t think they make it to the level of opera. Not meant as a slam on G&S: They’re just a different art form (with puppy love!) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/27 "2009-03-02T20:47:15Z")
Puppy love? In G&S? Surely you jest! RALPH. I am poor in the essence of happiness, lady – rich only in never-ending unrest. In me there meet a combination of antithetical elements which are at eternal war with one another. Driven hither by objective influences – thither by subjective emotions – wafted one moment into blazing day, by mocking hope – plunged the next into the Cimmerian darkness of tangible despair, I am but a living ganglion of irreconcilable antagonisms. I hope I make myself clear, lady? JOS. Perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/28 "2009-03-02T21:02:10Z")
If in english inst an issue, Magic Flute. If they want something in english, Pirates of Penzance. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/29 "2009-03-02T21:52:49Z")
It depends on the person you’re introducing to opera, of course. For just a generic starter opera, I’d go with “Marriage of Figaro” or “Die Fleidermaus.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/30 "2009-03-02T22:05:01Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Puppy love? In G&S? Surely you jest! From _The Mikado_ Royal Heir: “But what if I were no musician?” Koko: “Oh, I knew it directly I heard you play!” Wagner kicks ass. ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/31 "2009-03-02T22:31:11Z")
Thanks for all the responses. Keep in mind this is not for me, but rather for a random newcomer with earnest intentions. Is there no love for my idea about starting with a Strauss shocker? Don’t make me go back to the friend I mentioned in the OP and say that not one person backed up my bid! Carmen seems to come out on top- I can see why. But I guess I STILL think Elektra would be a better starter…Maybe I’m nutz. Can anyone comment on the (in)appropriateness of Elektra or Salome as a starter opera? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/32 "2009-03-02T22:58:50Z")
> [@Bamboo\_Boy](#): > > Can anyone comment on the (in)appropriateness of Elektra or Salome as a starter opera? Yeah - don’t do it, because Strauss is crap 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/33 "2009-03-02T23:07:50Z")
[QUOTE=Bamboo Boy] Can anyone comment on the (in)appropriateness of Elektra or Salome as a starter opera? [/QUOTE] It’s been a while since I heard anything from either, but they just seemed so damn noisy! I think they’re very much either love’em or hate’em kind of pieces. I would think that there would be a good chance that they would turn a newbie off opera entirely, if they didn’t happen to appeal to said newbie. Strauss was composing in an art form that had been under development for two centuries by then, and his solution to “been there, heard that” was shock value of the music. I’m not sure that’s the best introduction for a newbie. ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/34 "2009-03-02T23:12:20Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yeah - don’t do it, because Strauss is crap > > 😃 Bu-bu-but! Rosenkavalier! Elektra! Salome! Ariadne! Cappriccio! And don’t get me started about the NON-opera music of Richard Strauss! Glories and Riches! This thread comes to mind: > **[When someone realizes you HATE a performer they LOVE...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=502990)** > > …so - what’s your best story, which performers do you find yourself on the opposite side of the fence most often with, which are your “gatekeeper” artists you use to see if you are talking with someone you can relate with? Inspired by... Well what can one expect from a Gorilla Man? 😛 It takes Diff’rent Strokes to move the world, I guess, as the song goes… -BB ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/35 "2009-03-02T23:19:36Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > _Das Rheingold._ Wotan and Loge messing with Albreich is cool. The motivations of the characters are understood and easy to follow. And, no arias! 🙂 You’re suggesting Wagner for the rookie? Sink or swim, I suppose, but damn! What’s the matter with “The Magic Flute”? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/36 "2009-03-02T23:40:38Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > You’re suggesting Wagner for the rookie? Sink or swim, I suppose, but damn! > > What’s the matter with “The Magic Flute”? It opens with “Oh help, oh help, a giant snake is chasing me!” does it not? The Reisenwurm in Wagner is toast. 🙂 I was listening to Das Rheingold on my MP3 (coolness in itself ) and reflected on the humanness of the gods if you will. Fricka bitching and then cajoling her husband when she finds out about the gold; Loge advising Wotan “to steal from the thief what he stole” the testosterone poisoning of Donner and Froth. Alberich beating up on his brother. Your basic screwed up families. There are relatively short scenes, there are of course motifs for characters and concepts. Did I mention no arias? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/37 "2009-03-02T23:48:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It’s been a while since I heard anything from either, but they just seemed so damn noisy! I think they’re very much either love’em or hate’em kind of pieces. I would think that there would be a good chance that they would turn a newbie off opera entirely, if they didn’t happen to appeal to said newbie. > > Hey, that’s what my friend I mentioned in the OP said! LOL. Oh well, I suppose I should probably throw in the towel. Fair enough. > Strauss was composing in an art form that had been under development for two centuries by then, and his solution to “been there, heard that” was shock value of the music. I’m not sure that’s the best introduction for a newbie. I do feel compelled to add though, that the music of Strauss is not a reactionary “been there, done that” kind of deal. It is a clear extension of the Late Romantic Era, as you point out. Noisy yes, shocking at times, yes (but hey- this IS theater, right?)- but also almost unbearably beautiful at times, menacing at others, it runs the whole gamut of emotion writ large, IMHO. It still seems to me, though- (and this is EXACTLY how the argument with my friend went!) that all the operas mentioned above, the ‘good’ starters (Puccini, Verdi, Bizet, Mozart, etc) - they certainly possess winning qualities; I can see WHY one would choose them to start with. But- to ‘crack’ them beyond just being able to sit through the music, one needs to see through a kind of veil of style/genre- which requires much pre-knowledge or at least some natural intuition, or something. Strauss’s brand of Expressionism, IMHO, is just so coherent, so lucid and convincing, that he seems to remove that veil and the music is the emotion itself rather than a representation of the emotion. Of course it ISN’T; I know that- it’s still just music- but…I hope I made my point! Oh- and don’t worry- when asked the question the OP concerns, I usually say “Well, it seems MOST people think you should start with Puccini, Mozart, Verdi, Bizet, I can see why and they’re probably right, but you might also want to try…” I also love the Peter Grimes suggestion someone made up there. What do all the nay-sayers to Strauss (which I guess is EVERYONE who chimed in!) say to Britten/Peter Grimes? If Peter Grimes is “legal”;), I would actually push for The Turn of the Screw which is one of my favorites. I guess I think the ghost story angle is a good sell and very compelling. Chilling!!! Oh and lastly- Wagner? Really? That seems almost…cruel to a newcomer! I love Wagner, and I’m not disparaging his work- but I just don’t see that as newcomer territory at all! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/38 "2009-03-02T23:58:30Z")
> [@Bamboo\_Boy](#): > > Oh and lastly- Wagner? Really? That seems almost…cruel to a newcomer! I love Wagner, and I’m not disparaging his work- but I just don’t see that as newcomer territory at all! I became interested in Classical music through _2001: A Space Odyssey_ and then Wagner. The Ring is much more like a film or a novel to me than other opera, of which I admit I’ve not heard much. You’ve got your basic Dragon, your Flying Horse, your Warrior Maidens, Magic Sword, Treacherous Elves…this is cool stuff for the new guy! I took three hours of German in college so that I could find my place in the librettos. ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/39 "2009-03-03T00:02:26Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > You’re suggesting Wagner for the rookie? Sink or swim, I suppose, but damn! > > What’s the matter with “The Magic Flute”? Concerning the Wagner- my thoughts exactly! LOL. The Magic Flute- I think it’s just too weird. Gorgeous music, dialog so it’s not too monotonous (so I hear), gorgeous music, spectacular coloratura arias from the Queen of the Night, gorgeous music, sure. But it’s just TOO weird. I have seen it and played it and know it backward and forward (musically), but I really can’t say that I feel I understand it. Why the switcheroo of the antagonist? Also, and many of my friends would want to crucify me for saying this, but the initiation scene in Act II when they undergo those trials or whatever is kinda boring. If I were going with Mozart, I think I would choose The Marriage of Figaro (which is a little long) or Don Giovanni before the Magic Flute. Maybe even the Abduction from the Seraglio, which has fantastic music (as so all of the mentioned), but is a little dry on stage. ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926/40 "2009-03-03T00:11:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I became interested in Classical music through _2001: A Space Odyssey_ and then Wagner. The Ring is much more like a film or a novel to me than other opera, of which I admit I’ve not heard much. You’ve got your basic Dragon, your Flying Horse, your Warrior Maidens, Magic Sword, Treacherous Elves…this is cool stuff for the new guy! > > I took three hours of German in college so that I could find my place in the librettos. How cool that you put in that serious investment of time studying German to understand the librettos more directly! I really admire that. Just out of curiosity, what other operas are you familiar with, and which ones appealed to you? Which ones didn’t? And since you find a lot of appeal in what I have come to think of as the D&D aspect of the Ring (no offense meant!)- dragons, magic rings and swords, Elves, sleeping maidens, etc- if you went to a production and found out that it was set in outer space or in the Vietnam War or something, would you be crestfallen? This happens to me all the time, BTW and only on rare occasion do I enjoy the change from the norm. I’m just wondering how someone like you would greet something like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-piece-would-you-recommend-as-a-starter-opera-for-a-newcomer-to-opera/487926.md?page=3)