# What precisely went wrong in Nazi Germany? A psychological inquiry. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619 "2003-07-24T13:42:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/41 "2003-07-25T09:57:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by desdinova \* > \*\* > > Incidentally, I got my chronology screwed up. Browning’s work was published first (in 1992) and it was Goldhagen’s book that was published in 1996 (somewhat in response to Browning’s, IIRC). I also tend to recommend Browning’s book over Goldhagen’s because it’s significantly less dense… Goldhagen reads about exactly as I would expect a Harvard thesis would. But once it’s all said and done, I think the Browning text makes a significantly better case that is more in keeping with the evidence as we know it. For all his verbosity, Goldhagen seems to rely more on bold assertions than the published facts. I haven’t read his book in a while either though, not since it was first published. \*\* Yes, Goldhagen relied heavily on Browning, though coming to different conclusions on the same issues repeatedly. Goldhagen sometimes uses data in a very strange fashion, such as when skimming across the 1932 elections pointing out that in the elections in July, 37.4% of the electorate voted for Hitler -which means reciprocally that 62.6%, i.e. almost two thirds, did not vote for him. The issue is a minefield since any critique of Goldhagen’s thesis always was an inch away from being called supportive of Nazi Germany. However, I don’t think that Goldhagen has accounted sufficiently for the strength of the Hitler-opposing leftist parties in the last bunch of free elections. In fact, from the elections in June, where they had 37.4%, the NSDAP LOST votes and only received 33.1% in November of the same year. One problem, I think, is that the fact that average Germans can be found having taken part in atrocities is not really a justification for a generalization about ‘average Germans’ in general, and that data from post-33 is bound to be skewed by the incarceration, murder, or exile of numerous activists who opposed Hitler. It is most certainly true that the ‘executioners’ were by far not all SS fanatics, but regular civil servants and neighbors who denounced neighbors. But ‘there are rabid hamsters’ doesn’t mean that ‘hamsters are rabid’. This, however, is precisely the conclusion that Goldhagen draws: Because normal Germans were complicit in the murders, all normal Germans would have acted that way, had they come in the position to do so. This generalization has led to tremendous critique, since it is not one that is usually seen as sufficing academic standards of evidence. Incidentally, Goldhagen’s book was very well received by the public here in Germany, whereas there was plenty of discussion and dispute with the academic world. For those speaking german, there is a summary of the discussion at [http://www.fes.de/fulltext/historiker/00144.htm](http://www.fes.de/fulltext/historiker/00144.htm) Unfortunately, Goldhagen has shown little readiness to substantially address criticism any more in-depth than simply dismissing it. As such, the discussion has seized with all sides dug in. This is all the more tragic since regardless of the merits of his theses, his book was a valuable catalyst of important discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/42 "2003-07-25T10:31:22Z")
This site has many speeches and essays by top nazi leaders. [http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm#Speech](http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm#Speech) ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/43 "2003-07-25T12:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > And by the way, what do your relatives and their military service have to do with it? Are they going to personally save us should our governing institutions faulter? I only mention my relatives to iterate that I have heard many a story about various wartimes. Why I think it can’t happen: Because I belive we have entered a global modern age. With a wide spread industrialized, technologically advanced, spiritually aware socialization currently taking place. Generation by generation people are becoming more and more aware of whats happening globally instead of ethnocentrically. Some one in Indonesia can access the same information as I can here in Connecticut, with a phone line and a modem. Why just last week I was involved in a debate with several town councilors regarding our new school budget. Programs are being developed to teach our kids to be more global thinkers, involved in what happens outside the United States. I know there is a broad group of people who do not care on both sides of the oceans, but believe generation after generation that is changing. Call me an optimistic fool if you wish, won’t bother me at all. ---
**Author:** ![ethic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/977dab/32.png) [@ethic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/44 "2003-07-25T15:02:55Z")
Phlosphr, First, I think you diregard the fact that modern mass media played a large role in the ability of Stalin and Hitler to rise to such power in so short period a time. Granted, communication was not as de-centralized as the Internet and mobile devices have made it. But let’s not fool ourselves about information being in total checks-and-balances in todays society with conglomerates like AOL Time Warner and FOX. Some of the coverage of the Iraq War by those two entities smacked me in the face as pure patriotism Such coverage is no different than the ethno-centricity you claim is of a bygone age. It’s \*nationalist[i/i] (hint hint hint). For crying out loud, AlJezira has almost been cast as a terrorist co-conspirator! Secondly, industralization was waaaay into gear in Germany and Japan long before Hitler and Hirohito eviscrated the struggling democracies of their respective countries. As a matter of fact _globalization_ is what lead to the utterly devestating effects of 1929 that sent Germany, finally somewhat recuperating from its heavy Reparations, into an economic tailspin. More _globalized_ and interdependant economies mean that the good and the bad can spread like wild fire. Thirdly, you’re portraying contemporary society as more involved and educated. I don’t buy it. But I don’t have any comparative literacy figures to back this. All I can say anecdotally is that despite over 10 years of Internet usage (or maybe, ahem, due to it) I meet some pretty misinformed people with some strange world views. My grandparents (all Swedes in their 20ies when Hitler came to power) weren’t the most professorial types. One was a metal worker and a social democrate who read the papers and kept himself somewhat apace. He used to tell me how shocked he was back then when he heard what was going on in Germany: “Those darned Nazis, I don’t understand it”. Your lackadaisical attitude about the threats of mass bigotry and economic disaster frightens me. I bet I could have walked into a Parisian cafe in 1901 and heard the sam arguments about “our bright and enlightened future”… ---
**Author:** ![Antiquarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Antiquarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antiquarian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/45 "2003-07-25T15:31:54Z")
Though I do not wholly agree with what **Phlosphr** is saying, I would not go as far to say it frightens me. > [@](#): > > I bet I could have walked into a Parisian cafe in 1901 and heard the sam arguments about “our bright and enlightened future”… Had you walked into a Prussian Cafe in 1916 how optimistic would you be about “our bright and enlightened future” ? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/46 "2003-07-25T15:51:32Z")
IIRC the Nazis tried to build some kind of pagan pseudo relgion based on pre-Christian mythology. Don’t know if the leaderhsip was atheists trying to peddle their own brand of relgious snake oil to the masses out of cynicism, or if they bought it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/47 "2003-07-25T16:02:42Z")
Well, Himmler was kind of into it, apparently. Consequently you do indeed find quite some of it in the ss. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/48 "2003-07-25T16:23:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > Sorry, **Ryan** > > Google is not your friend when your search includes words like nazi, religion, atheism, anti-church. Well, I think that we can say at the very least that the overwhelming majority of those that voted for the Nazis were Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/49 "2003-07-25T16:32:16Z")
Hmm, that’s more like saying that the vast majority voting for Saddam was muslim. ---
**Author:** ![ethic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/977dab/32.png) [@ethic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/50 "2003-07-25T17:15:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Had you walked into a Prussian Cafe in 1916 how optimistic would you be about “our bright and enlightened future” ? But the point was that many people of the fin-de-siecle were probably convinced something like 1914-18 would not happen in such an enlightened era. And anything like what it lead to (the topic at hand, Germany 1933-45) was probably even more remote and inconceivable! The Triump of Technology and Elightenment is an old argument that keeps popping up. I don’t buy it because the humans at the center of our current state-of-affairs aren’t much different from the humans involved in shaping Europe at the turn of the last century. I believe that the human condition has remained the same and that we will always have to remain vigilant against our irrational fears and mob mentality. “We are above that now” is a very languid and dangerous attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/51 "2003-07-25T17:27:29Z")
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned the Milgram experiment: [http://designweb.otago.ac.nz/grant/psyc/OBEDIANCE.HTML](http://designweb.otago.ac.nz/grant/psyc/OBEDIANCE.HTML) is as good a summary as any. In a nutshell, the majority of people seem to be “hard-wired” to obey “authority” no matter what, even to the point of committing atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/52 "2003-07-25T18:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe that the human condition has remained the same and that **we will always have to remain vigilant against our irrational fears and mob mentality**. “We are above that now” is a very languid and dangerous attitude. **Ethic** I agree completely this this statement. And I did not mean to infer we were above such tendencies. I do not believe our humanity will ever get surpassed by our technology. But I do think there will come a time when our global heightened awareness is less apt towards war, and more apt towards a common functionality. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/53 "2003-07-25T18:56:07Z")
[There’s a Staff Report on whether Hitler was actually a Christian.](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html) **Phlosphr** : way back in your OP you quoted Adolf Eichmann as saying that he and other Nazis learned evil gradually. I tend to agree with this. The seminal work on the “banality of evil” (a well-known expression of this idea) is Hannah Arendt’s **Eichmann in Jerusalem**. I think it is a very important book. ---
**Author:** ![ethic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/977dab/32.png) [@ethic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/54 "2003-07-25T19:31:46Z")
> [@](#): > > But I do think there will come a time when our global heightened awareness is less apt towards war, and more apt towards a common functionality. I hope so. That why I support strengthening international organs like the UN. :eek: I can just see the digressions coming… But seriously, the attrocities of the 1930ies and 40ies is exactly why the UN was created. I don’t want to start the old debate about whether the UN is fulfilling its function. I’m just pointing to the necessity of having such institutions. We need them specifically because what happened in Germany in 1933 _could happen_ ( and has happened ) again. I remember how surprised I was in 1991 when I heard what was happening along the beautiful tourist haven of the Dalmatian coast. Now in retrospect, with 20/20 hindsight, we talk about how plagued Yugoslavia was from within at the time. But back then, in Stockholm, we were like “man, it’s, like, Europe. How can it be???”. ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/55 "2003-07-25T20:03:20Z")
Look in your back yard for the answer to the op. The public can easily be manipulated with propaganda and trauma. The burning of the Reichstag building was very successfully used to ramp up the public opinion for war (9/11 anyone?). A traumatized public can be easily molded. Play on existing biases and target a scape goat group, and it’s even the easier. Most of Germany really didn’t mind when Germany invaded Poland. Another point, the Germans felt they could proceed righteously because of precedent. Hitler was doing nothing new. He looked to the Armenian holocaust as his example. And that one still isn’t really acknowledged today! It was known to the US that Russia had massacred 1000’s as early as 1939. But Uncle Joe was still a pal. Add to that the fire-bombing of civilians in Dresden - a generally known non-military target (which incidentally killed about 500,000 people - more than when we nuked Japan). And somehow, it doesn’t seem like indiscriminate killing is a strictly German phenomenon. An older German friend once said to me, “now you know what it felt like under Nazi Germany. You have an illegitimate leader, silencing opposition, attacking foreign countries unprovoked - and there’s nothing you can do about it. That’s the powerlessness we felt.” ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/56 "2003-07-25T21:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Unfortunately, he (Milgram) proved that anybody and everybody could be an instrument of death > [@](#): > > is as good a summary as any. In a nutshell, the majority of people seem to be “hard-wired” to obey “authority” no matter what, even to the point of committing atrocity I wouldnt say this points that everybody could be a killer. More like that people who sign up for experiments will do whatever the leader of that experiment tells them to do. I would have been more impressed if they did this completly by suprise and without letting them know it was an experiment. I dont think the random joe of the street would electrocute anybody. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/57 "2003-07-25T21:43:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by David Simmons_\*\* > > > > It is my opinion that the USA Patriot Act is just the sort of emergency executive power that the legislature in Germany gave to the executive at that time. > > How did you come to that conclusion? Does the Patriot Act give legislative power to the president? \*\* I’m puzzled by question about the Act giving _legislative_ powers to the president. No one said that it did. Various groups, and even the House of Representatives, are protesting that the Act gives such broad _emergency executive_ powers to the president that it might be put into the category with, “We had to burn down the village in order to save it.” Here is the site about [the House of Representatives.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/oneworld/20030724/wl_oneworld/4536642391059052136) Here is an analysis of [the effect on the internet.](http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.php) And here is [the Act itself](http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.final.102401.html) in all its glory. It is a complex piece of legislation that amends numerous other Federal laws and I don’t have the energy to track them all down and I’m sure I don’t have the skill to analyze the effect of the ammendments even given the time. And, of course nobody really knows what it means until a court rules and the courts have been pretty deferential so far. From what I have read it gives the president unrestricted power to declare someone an “enemy combatant” which has the effect of removing that person’s civil rights. It seems to me that congress has delegated to the president a power that the congress doesn’t even have, it being specifically denied that by the constitution. Namely the power of attainder. I don’t think GW is evil, butAshcroft, Rumsfeld, Perle and Wolfowitz might be. And I think it has been demonstrated, and I’ve read the same about him in general, that GW isn’t particulary curious and doesn’t inquire too closely into what he declares to be facts. So it an indictment of some person is presented to him as “proof” that someone, or even a whole group, is an “enemy combatant” he might be inclined to sign off on it, sight unseen. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/58 "2003-07-25T22:06:53Z")
You might just as well ask, “Why do Americans tolerate the holocaust committed against the third world by the CIA and the Pentagon (6 million victims and counting according to John Stockwell).” Americans are so wrapped in denial about the holocaust that we are responsible for, it is not even widely acknowledged as a holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/59 "2003-07-27T00:05:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > I’m puzzled by question about the Act giving legislative powers to the president. No one said that it did. Oh, right, you said **executive** powers. Never mind that the Enabling Act was chiefly concerned with legislative powers, and that the discussion of executive powers is deceptive and irrelevant. No, all that matters is linking Bush to Hitler, no matter how absurd the comparison. Don’t waste time with Godwin’s Law, do you? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619/60 "2003-07-27T00:56:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\* Never mind that the Enabling Act was chiefly concerned with legislative powers, and that the discussion of executive powers is deceptive and irrelevant. No, all that matters is linking Bush to Hitler, no matter how absurd the comparison. \*\* What on earth are you talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-precisely-went-wrong-in-nazi-germany-a-psychological-inquiry/190619.md?page=4)