It just boggles the mind that nearly 60 years ago there was such atrocity going on in the world, nearly unchecked at that. This statement may be naive, but I don’t see how anything even remotely close to the holocaust could happen in thid day and age and with the same numbers of people. I know there is genocide in Africa and elsewhere but not with the kind of number’s of back then.
Today we are forewarned that such things can happen. Thinking that the Germans were just insane and that that closes the chapter is dangerous. Very dangerous.
The Serbs have come close, albeit on a smaller scale. Unchecked, things might have become even worse. Good thing that these days we have the UN.
Oh, drat, forgot. The UN is an irrelevant institution, right?
While the general public knew nothing, the higher-ups in the American government most certainly did. In this confidential dispatch to the US State Department in 1939 (a full six years before the Holocaust became publicly known), the author speculates on how the Germans could perpetuate atrocities. The rest of the memo describes early manifestations of the Holocaust.
Phlosphr, you wonder how ordinary people of the rank and file could be so zealous in killing. Ever heard of the Stanley Milgram Obedience Experiment? Unfortunately, he proved that anybody and everybody could be an instrument of death. I found the text box in the bottom right corner of the page especially disturbing.
I’m not quite sure why everyone points fingers at others such as “the Serbs” or during WWII “the Germans” or “the Japs.”
The people of the US actively engaged in or tolerated human slavery long after other advanced nations had abolished it. Those in the South were able to consider themselves civilized and cultured people by assuming that the black slaves were some sort of inferior being and those in the North were able to tolerate it by turning it into a remote, theoretical affair that really didn’t affect them.
In addition, the Native Americans were considered to be a low form of life that really was hindering the development of the land by not using it for maximum benefit. And so they were moved out where possible and exterminated where not.
I have trouble seeing why people are astounded that ordinary people can engage in such activities. Other posters have cited the experiments showing that if you make cruelty socially acceptable, people, and not just “street thugs in uniform” as one poster claimed, will be cruel.
Mob psychology is nothing else but making murder, or arson, or beatings socially acceptable for at least a short time.
I know full well Dave that the human race is capable of horrid atrocites. I am asking about this particular situation because Europe was supposedly quite civilized when all this occured.
The Native American’s met their first slaughter’s in the 17th century in a very rural place. They couldn’t call their families or other tribes and warn them over the phone that a great white death was approaching. The holocaust happened in the 20th century…That’s my point.
I’m not asking about learning from past mistakes, I’m asking about a 20th century genocide of millions of people relatively quickly. There were free tribed of native American’s well in to the 19th century.
You asked about the mindset of the Germans. How could they?
Dave’s example of the American mindset about the natives should give you an insight.
One of the saddest aspects of German Jewish Holocaust survivor reports is the repeated belief that as member of a civilized nation, the Germans will not allow the Nazi’s to remain in power for very long.
“This will pass if only we keep a low profile” is the comment that I’ve read over and over again.
Another is the belief of German Jewish WWI veterans that their previous war service will exempt them from extreme persecution.
Uck, that combined with the Indians reminds me of a movie scene, can’t remember which one exactly, where this chief stands in his old U.S. uniform, while around him US cavalry is ‘lawlessly shooting women and children amongst the tipi’s’.
Well, Hitler’s Willing Executioners was brought up, so I’d like to bring up Christopher Browning’s Ordinary Men. It is the rebuttal to Goldhagen’s work, and I think Browning makes a far better case that the holocaust was the sort of thing that could just about happen anywhere, and the Germans were not somehow an exception. I think post-holocaust research and experiments such as those cited here fully support this conclusion. In any event, it’s an excellent read and I believe necessary if you’re going to read Goldhagen’s work and want the complete picture.
And my point is that I don’t think anything “went wrong” in Germany in the sense that I believe you are using. To me it is a normal reaction to panic, occasioned in Germany by the wild inflation in which people saw their life savings disappear overnight; resentment over the WWI peace terms; and the need for a scapegoat along with a strong organization that made such actions perfectly justifiable in their minds.
It is my opinion that the USA Patriot Act is just the sort of emergency executive power that the legislature in Germany gave to the executive at that time. I believe that a person like Hitler could take the USA Patriot Actand do exactly the same things here to the scapegoat group that was done to the so-called “undesirables” in Germany.
And I don’t think there would be all that much of an outcry among the devotees of Faux News.
When institutions that uphold the rule of law faulter, a power struggle at the root level starts. Who ever grabs what ever they can. Look at what happened in Russia post the collapse off the Soviet Union. Luckily for all of us, the Russian institutions didn’t crumble under the pressure of growing lawlessness.
But if you’re unlucky, failed chicken farmers like Himmler have a chance to fill the power gap. And the spiral starts. Germany is the result of gun touting hooligans having a chance at government.
Heck, look at the French Revolution! Talk about senseless killings. There are these moments in history when anything can happen: Germany 1929 - 33, Cambodia 1969 - 75, Iraq 2003 - …
It’s outright disturbing how similar our two posts there are.
But, that is exactly what I took away from Goldhagen’s book. That a great deal of the attrocities that occurred were committed by ordinary Germans and that it could have happened anywhere.
My personal $.02 is that there haven’t been any shifts in human behavior on an individual or group level since the 1940’s. Evolution takes a lot longer than that. So, what happened then could happen now at any time or place as long as the right circumstances for it to happen occur.
Philosophically speaking I would say this assertion is in accurate. Social reform, civic evolutions and societal folkways and mores have all changed in the past 60 years. I do not agree this could happen again given a similar set of circumstances. I have relatives who were in both world wars, and korea, viet nam. The mentality of the third reich was not a normal state of affairs. I be hard pressed against anyone who said it could happen again today, on the scale it did then.
Actually, it does still happen Phlosphr albeit not on such a grand scale.
I give you Cambodia.
Serbia/Croatia.
The Congo.
Rwanda.
Uganda.
The Nazi’s perfected the killing machine and although other evil regimes have not been able to emulate the sheer numbers that they achieved-sadly enough it hasn’t been for lack of trying.
Sorry, I should have expanded a bit more, I was at the office and it’s been a while since I read either book. The specific differences between the Goldhagen and Browning approaches to the same data (Reserve Police Battalion 101) are primarily centered around two key points: the role of anti-semitism in German history and the precise motivations that drove “ordinary men” to commit genocide. Goldhagen tends to put great weight on anti-semitism as an ever present facet of German society, and essentially claims national socialism was only an expression of what everyone was thinking anyway. Browning is certainly not dismissive of the role of anti-semitism, but thinks there’s a lot more to it than that. Motivations are another point of contention: Goldhagen, as the name of his book suggests, paints a portrait of blood thirsty killers from all walks of German life. Browning’s approach puts significantly more importance on essentially peer-pressure as well as conditions on the eastern front. I’m just skimming through Browning’s afterword though… surely someone else here is more familiar with the work than I am?
Incidentally, I got my chronology screwed up. Browning’s work was published first (in 1992) and it was Goldhagen’s book that was published in 1996 (somewhat in response to Browning’s, IIRC). I also tend to recommend Browning’s book over Goldhagen’s because it’s significantly less dense… Goldhagen reads about exactly as I would expect a Harvard thesis would. But once it’s all said and done, I think the Browning text makes a significantly better case that is more in keeping with the evidence as we know it. For all his verbosity, Goldhagen seems to rely more on bold assertions than the published facts. I haven’t read his book in a while either though, not since it was first published.
Bold statement. Why do you think it can’t happen? A hunch? Or do you have a concrete argument? I’m not saying you’re not right. I’m just wondering if it’s one of those unsubstantiated IMHO.
I agree that you need a state similar to the Third Reich to carry out attrocities. It’s not like my fellow New Yorkers will suddenly tomorrow go out on the street and start shooting Muslims.
But what you’re implicitly claiming is that a state like the Third Reich can’t come about again. Why not? Imagine the global economy tanks big way. 0 interest rate. Massive deflation. All your savings evaporated into thin air. Growing poverty. Starving kids on your street corner. And there nothing the governing institutions can do about it. Those damned impotent ijits! What we need is someone stroooong, someone smaaart, someone who can restore order to the world, someone who speaks the simple truuuth…
And by the way, what do your relatives and their military service have to do with it? Are they going to personally save us should our governing institutions faulter?
Latro
Do you have a cite for that?
David Simmons
How did you come to that conclusion? Does the Patriot Act give legislative power to the president?
I thought it was common knowledge that fascism was anti-clerical but I’ll see if I can dig something up.
Sorry, Ryan
Google is not your friend when your search includes words like nazi, religion, atheism, anti-church.
There’s just no wading through all the christian sites that want to denounce atheism because the Nazi’s were atheist, Atheist sites that want to disprove that the nazi’s were really atheists and a host of sites that want to make the most of nazi interest in norse/german mythology.
I’m giving up, I’m supposed to do at least some actual work for my wages.