# What prehistoric oddity did I just pull out of my garden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 2, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424 "2010-09-02T20:20:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/21 "2010-09-03T01:24:37Z")
To pin it down further, have a discussion about politics with it. The Newt, of course, is a Republican. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/22 "2010-09-03T13:07:35Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > > [@enipla](#): > > > > Hiya neighbor. What town? Iā€™m on top of Hoosier pass, just north of Alma. > > Oh wow, youā€™re out by Leadvilleā€¦Iā€™m up in Jefferson County, near Coal Creek. Just bought a house on a few acresā€¦love it. Definitely settling in up here! Closer to Breckenridge actually, about 12 miles south, 11,200 feet. Your out by Canon City then. Cool area. We almost bought land near Silver Cliff. Seems odd to find a lizard in the mountains. I sure have never seen one. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/23 "2010-09-03T14:06:46Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > > [@Phlosphr](#): > > > > Oh wow, youā€™re out by Leadvilleā€¦Iā€™m up in Jefferson County, near Coal Creek. Just bought a house on a few acresā€¦love it. Definitely settling in up here! > > Closer to Breckenridge actually, about 12 miles south, 11,200 feet. Your out by Canon City then. Cool area. We almost bought land near Silver Cliff. > > Seems odd to find a lizard in the mountains. I sure have never seen one. Itā€™s not a lizard, it is a salamander; an amphibian like a frog. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/24 "2010-09-03T14:08:05Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > > [@Phlosphr](#): > > > > Oh wow, youā€™re out by Leadvilleā€¦Iā€™m up in Jefferson County, near Coal Creek. Just bought a house on a few acresā€¦love it. Definitely settling in up here! > > Closer to Breckenridge actually, about 12 miles south, 11,200 feet. Your out by Canon City then. Cool area. We almost bought land near Silver Cliff. > > Seems odd to find a lizard in the mountains. I sure have never seen one. Itā€™s an amphibian, not a lizard (reptile). ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/25 "2010-09-03T15:16:25Z")
I thought it was odd as well, but then, there are a lot of oddities in the mountainsā€¦like no snow plows but 40 ton graders to remove snowā€¦weird. And yes, itā€™s an amphibian, like a frog. And with last nights 39 degrees, itā€™s probably well into finding a place to hibernate. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/26 "2010-09-03T15:17:50Z")
Has anyone considered that itā€™s not a lizard, itā€™s an amphibian? I bet it likes rock music, particularly _Rio_, by Duran Duran. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/27 "2010-09-03T15:28:26Z")
But is it a 1920s style amphibian? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/28 "2010-09-03T15:32:53Z")
Weā€™re old. Iā€™m glad weā€™re still around to amuse each other with truly outdated Doper Jokes, **Inigo**. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/29 "2010-09-03T15:55:49Z")
Technically, thereā€™s no such thing as a ā€œreptileā€ any more, though what we learned in fifth grade as ā€œamphibiansā€ still is a valid group ā€“ ā€œLissamphibiaā€: extant tetrapods that didnā€™t develop the amniote egg, a valid clade. But evolutionarily and physiologically, crocodilians, lizards and snakes, turtles, and the tuatara have nothing in common with each other that they do not also share with mammals and birds; theyā€™re not a valid group, ā€œ\*Reptiliaā€. The closet living relative of a crocodilian (other than other crocodilians, of course) is a bird, probably a paleognath such as the cassowary. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/30 "2010-09-03T15:58:36Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Technically, thereā€™s no such thing as a ā€œreptileā€ any more, though what we learned in fifth grade as ā€œamphibiansā€ still is a valid group ā€“ ā€œLissamphibiaā€: extant tetrapods that didnā€™t develop the amniote egg, a valid clade. But evolutionarily and physiologically, crocodilians, lizards and snakes, turtles, and the tuatara have nothing in common with each other that they do not also share with mammals and birds; theyā€™re not a valid group, ā€œ\*Reptiliaā€. The closet living relative of a crocodilian (other than other crocodilians, of course) is a bird, probably a paleognath such as the cassowary. Next thing youā€™ll say is that Pluto isnā€™t a planetā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/31 "2010-09-03T16:03:12Z")
Iā€™m not sure about other reptiles, but Western Fence Lizards are pretty common in the mountains up to 10,000 ft. They survive the winters by [brumation](http://lllreptile.com/info/library/care-and-husbandry-articles/-/reptilian-brumation/)as opposed to hibernation. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/32 "2010-09-03T16:38:55Z")
Itā€™s a young tiger salamander. Full-grown tigers can be over 12 inches long. They are found throughout Colorado except in the highest elevations. They (along with spotted salamanders and some others) are members of a group called mole salamanders. As the name implies, they spend most of their time underground. They breed in ponds in early spring, often when there is still ice around the edges. ---
**Author:** ![jujuju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@jujuju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jujuju)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/33 "2010-09-03T17:22:44Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Closer to Breckenridge actually, about 12 miles south, 11,200 feet. Your out by Canon City then. Cool area. We almost bought land near Silver Cliff. > > Seems odd to find a lizard in the mountains. I sure have never seen one. I wanna live somewhere that is described by the altitude. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/34 "2010-09-03T17:25:24Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Technically, thereā€™s no such thing as a ā€œreptileā€ any more[ā€¦] No, ā€œReptileā€ can still a term describing those tetrapods that are within the one big terrestrial tetrapod clade & out of the amphibian, bird (or bird/dino), & mammal clades. Or, you know, function as a descriptive (not cladisitc) category, which is what it was in the first place. I would suggest for non-amphib non-mammal vertebrate tetrapods with ā€œreptileā€ limb joints as opposed to ā€œdino/birdā€ limb joints, but I guess some dinos are still considered borderline reptilian. You cladistics guys have an overly narrow approach to semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/35 "2010-09-03T17:49:06Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Technically, thereā€™s no such thing as a ā€œreptileā€ any more, though what we learned in fifth grade as ā€œamphibiansā€ still is a valid group ā€“ ā€œLissamphibiaā€: extant tetrapods that didnā€™t develop the amniote egg, a valid clade. But evolutionarily and physiologically, crocodilians, lizards and snakes, turtles, and the tuatara have nothing in common with each other that they do not also share with mammals and birds; theyā€™re not a valid group, ā€œ\*Reptiliaā€. The closet living relative of a crocodilian (other than other crocodilians, of course) is a bird, probably a paleognath such as the cassowary. Technically, reptile is a perfectly good term to use when talking about snakes, turtles, lizards, crocodilians, tuataras and even amphisbaenians. I have a hard time imagining a herpetologist saying that he studies non-avian, non-mammalian amniotes. Of course, it would depend on whether he wanted to convey useful information or obfuscate with pedantry.šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/36 "2010-09-03T17:51:52Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@Polycarp](#): > > > > Technically, thereā€™s no such thing as a ā€œreptileā€ any more, though what we learned in fifth grade as ā€œamphibiansā€ still is a valid group ā€“ ā€œLissamphibiaā€: extant tetrapods that didnā€™t develop the amniote egg, a valid clade. But evolutionarily and physiologically, crocodilians, lizards and snakes, turtles, and the tuatara have nothing in common with each other that they do not also share with mammals and birds; theyā€™re not a valid group, ā€œ\*Reptiliaā€. The closet living relative of a crocodilian (other than other crocodilians, of course) is a bird, probably a paleognath such as the cassowary. > > Next thing youā€™ll say is that Pluto isnā€™t a planetā€¦ Maybe, but the real question is : is he still a dog ? ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/37 "2010-09-03T18:34:47Z")
Donā€™t all the reptiles share the 2-lobed reptilian brain structure? I that feature not enough to tie them together cladistically? Or is there no such commonality, and all I thought I knew about brain evolution is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Looey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee7513/32.png) [@Looey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Looey)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/38 "2010-09-03T18:46:08Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Itā€™s a young tiger salamander. Full-grown tigers can be over 12 inches long. ā€¦ they spend most of their time underground. They breed in ponds in early spring, often when there is still ice around the edges. Seconded. I remember driving home at dusk one summer night. Someone said, ā€œWhatā€™s that funny noise? ā€¦ What are we running over? ā€¦ What the hell?ā€ There were literally hundreds of the things walking slowly across the road. I felt sorry for the poor buggers. My sisterā€™s kids kept two of them in an aquarium filled with moist dirt for a couple years or more. They do indeed spend a lot of time underground. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/39 "2010-09-04T00:09:50Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Itā€™s a young tiger salamander. Full-grown tigers can be over 12 inches long. They are found throughout Colorado except in the highest elevations. They (along with spotted salamanders and some others) are members of a group called mole salamanders. As the name implies, they spend most of their time underground. They breed in ponds in early spring, often when there is still ice around the edges. I fully concur. I tilled one up (around 10" long) late-Spring when prepping a garden area and since I had no idea the things were native here, I was amazed at the sudden appearance of a huge shiny black/yellow ā€˜thingā€™ in the dirt. No injury and it just kinda rambled away - until I plopped it into a cooler to take in and show wife/daughter. _That_ shouldā€™ve been on video with all the ā€œWTF is that!!!ā€ I heard (girls, geeeeesshā€¦) The nearest body of any water was probably a mile away, so full-time water isnā€™t a huge thing for older ones, it would seem. The critter now resides around our ~100g in-ground ā€˜pondā€™ after being released there unharmed. It quickly dug a hole/burrow that I was able to measure at being at least 24" deep - no telling how deep/long it is overall. Impressive beast, imho. Afaik, it is still amongst the rocks lining the pond with the bullfrogs and other expected critters. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424/40 "2010-09-04T01:51:42Z")
[Amphibaweb](http://amphibiaweb.org/lists/Ambystomatidae.shtml) has lots of pictures and range charts that could narrow down the exact variety of salamander. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-prehistoric-oddity-did-i-just-pull-out-of-my-garden/552424.md?page=3)