What price will the US make the French pay for crossing us?

Great Debates
21

The price of international marginalization?

22

I agree w/ Sam. We’ll cooperate w/ France when it suits us, but we’ll never trust them again. We will stop the charage that they are a world power and treat them more like the 2nd rate posers that they are. Mexico and Germany did not have veto authority to do the damage to the US that France had.

BTW, remember the “which country is the most free” debate from a week ago or so? Denmark, that bastion of freedom, is one of the few 1st world western democracies squarely on the side of the US. I find that very interesting. Must drive the lefties crazy.

23

In the history of the U.N., France has exercised its veto power only 18 times–13 in support of the U.S. position.

24

For crossing the US ? For crossing the US ?

Don’t you mean France’s leaders disagreeing with the US’s leaders about how to deal with a third country’s leader ?

I don’t think they “crossed the US” as much as they had a different take on the issue from what the Bush government does, which isn’t exactly a unique position internationally.

Are you seriously equating disagreeing on a course of action with “crossing the US” ? So the choices are ‘100% fully support and agree with Bush’ or ‘you are crossing the US’.

Please tell me I’ve been wooshed, or that you were just using extreme hyperbole. Otherwise I’m scared.

25

The fact is that there is very little the US can do to hurt France. The French economy depends on the EU far more than on the US. It’s a nuclear power and doesn’t face any serious military threat from anyone. Diplomatically it’s the US which is more isolated. As for “trust” I suspect it’s the US which has lost the trust of many countries not least because of the fiasco of the various pieces of phony “evidence” it’s presented.

In general I hope people realize that the US depends on many countries for intelligence co-operation in its fight against terrorism. That is likely to be the case for a long time. Gratuitously pissing off countries out of spite isn’t likely to enhance its security.

26

Can’t we just start making fun of the French?

27

That’s okay, I doubt they’ll trust us for a long time, especially since we promised earlier that UN Resolution 1441 didn’t have any automatic triggers for war…

28

Furthermore, France can be a useful partner at times. For one thing, they are one of the few powers willing to send large numbers of troops into harm’s way, outside of their region.

When genocide was occuring in Rwanda, the US and the rest of the world community sat on its collective hands and arses. *

It was France who finally put a stop to the killing. I, for one, will not forget that.

  • Politics: Yes, this was under Clinton. He later called it a mistake. W, during the debate with Gore, said that the US had the correct policy at the time. I disagree, FWIW.
29

You’ve heard of Russia and China too, right? Another two nations in Coalition of the Unwilling, but for some reason Americans remain obsessed with France “crossing the US”.

I’ll see your Denmark and raise you El Savador and Colombia. Another two great “democracies” both on the side of the US. What does it mean? Nothing, just like your Denmark example.

30

France didn’t agree with the US position, so it decided not to support it.

Democracy? Debate? Freedom of choice anyone?

So is Bush currently making all the MILLIONS of Americans who didn’t vote for him “pay the price” for crossing him?

31

To add to that, Denamrk has a very leftist orient gov’t as well. What a hoot!

Ok Narrad, that’s amature reasoning there, bud. You cannot sit there and say “There were other NON VOTING countries besisdes France against this,” and then say “but the NON VOTING countries who support the US, no, they don’t count, um, for some reason.” :rolleyes: I will now refer you to the case of the Goose Vs the Gander. sheesh.

For the record, it is common knowledge in the diplomatic community that Russia will likely change their tune when the US makes it more obvious that we want to invest in deveoping resource management in eastern siberia (something that has the incidental potential to make Russia an economic superpower, by the way.)

As for the OP here (sorry about the rant there, but I just couldn’t leave that one uncorrected, lol), I think the long term effects are that France will regret winning the revolutionary war for us here, low those centuries ago.
Seriously though, I see harsh words, and the sneering of noses at each other, but in the end, economic & cultural ties will allow common sense to prevail. Much as I do support this war (Both Parents are French, btw), Bush is a one termer, & Chirac, for all his bluster, is known to be a waffler at home. I see tensions being eased much more when our respective leaderships are changed again.
For those predicting (almost hoping for it sounds like, especially from the leftist american and right wing french crowds),some kind of Cold War over this, keep dreaming.
Both France & Russia will not have much patience with an arms buildup between NK & the people’s republic of China, and that’s something we (The US), already see eye to eye on.

Cheers

32

Try to follow.

One:

John Mace cites Mexico and Germany, finding them more blameless than France, which possesses veto power.

I pick out the obvious omissions of Russia and China, two nations who opposed the United States, and incidentally, hold veto power.

Two:

The next paragraph which includes the examples of El Savador and Colombia addresses a DIFFERENT point. It is in RESPONSE to John Mace’s supposition that the fact that Denmark is supporting the United States is any way relevant. My citing of the corrupt regimes of El Savador and Colombia who also support the US negates the proposition that the pro-war camp should take succor from the fact that Denmark is a liberal nation.

Two different points. Not connected in any fashion. There’s no goose; there’s no gander.

Are we clear?

**Please provide a citation for this wonderful snippet of “common knowledge”.

33

The truth in a plain form is this:
1) France asked that there would not be any war against Iraq, as long as the UN inspectors are working. How long time they need was up to Blix &Co.

**2)**France asked a few day ago, that UN inspectors would be given still 30 days.
This because Blix &Co believed that they would be ready at that time. In reality Blix wanted 45 days.

**3)**USA did not give the 30 days.

The rest is pure Bushista-propaganda.

Please, read papers all over the world. You will find their English editions in the Net.

Meanwhile You can just see what we that are not living in USA can read, there is some US articles also:
Here is some. For news and some for research of the past.

I have got many of these links from this boards, from You!
Thank You very much!
I did not take FOX News and his sisters here.

They are “with the story”, but just click ‘home’ and You are at somebody’s home;).
Maybe my home?

My main search is:

The top news is usually the “main (money) media = propaganda fo everyone.
But, under every news there is “and 1.234 related”’

Click that, and You find an ashtonishing world!

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle...storyID=2387563
Reuters: Cheney Disagrees with IAEA Nuclear Report on Iraq (This guy knows everything!)

http://www.albawaba.com/main/index.ie.php3?lang=e (Middle-East)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/defaul...8-3-2003_pg4_12 (Pakistan)

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/19/bush030319 (Canada)

http://www.jordantimes.com (Jordan)

Palestine
http://palestinechronicle.com/artic...030317091843662

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy…-2003Mar16.html

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...16-081604-3955r (UPI)

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Dai...2003031537.html (ArabicNews.com)

http://www.uruklink.net/iraqdaily/10092/page1.htm (Iraq)

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/co...255E663,00.html

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=318902003

http://canada.com/national/story.as...D81B7EEC67D8}

http://www.zmag.org/content/showart…=15&ItemID=3235

http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=23746 (Saudi Arabia)

Business and finance news from Guardian US | The Guardian…,914592,00.html

http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20030311IE1 (Finland)

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0311/schanberg.php

http://www.gulufuture.com/news/kate_adie030310.htm
and
http://www.gavinsblog.com/2003/03/14.html (How to treathen BBC and other journalists)

http://www.iht.com/articles/89441.html (International Herald Tribune)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showart…=21&ItemID=3204

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion...nts-headlines

The Times & The Sunday Times…-571972,00.html

http://www.dailystarnews.com/200303...0801.htm#BODY10

http://www.mediawhoresonline.com/

http://www.radio4all.org/unwelcome/archive.html

atimes.com (Asia Times)

http://allafrica.com/stories/200303040484.html (All Africa)

http://observer.co.uk/international…,905899,00.html

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/arc...03-0-25-32.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0127-08.htm

http://www.globalissues.net/article/654

Facts about Iraq:

Maps: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/featu...g=-40.029324320

http://www.atlapedia.com/online/map...l/Saudi_etc.htm

http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/iraq.htm (also facts about Iraq)
Have anyone found good maps about ME and Iraq?

http://www.rense.com/general35/facts.htm

http://www.smh.com.au/specials/iraq/index.html

http://slate.msn.com/ (Slate is very good).

http://www.media-alliance.org/media...nipulation.html

http://www.angelfire.com/linux/pear...s/bush-911.html

For those who has questions about Russia:

http://www.rosbaltnews.com/2003/03/12/61710.html

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/indexes/01.html

http://www.sptimesrussia.com/

http://www.interfax.ru/one_news_en....id_news=5624249

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stori.../03/13/009.html

http://www.ru/eng/index.search.html

http://www.wired.com/

Crazy about languages:
http://german.about.com/library/blt...ussian+language

http://dictionary.reference.com/translate/text.html

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google

http://shakespeare.about.com/

http://www.flowgo.com/greetings/dirtybaby/dirtybaby.swf (listen to this) It is a must! Humor, not dirty! (Short download)

http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml
This is also a must! Ironic, but shows that there is all kind of ants in the heap. (Short download)

http://hometown.aol.com/

http://www.washington-report.org/

Just for someone really interested in Republicans etc.

http://www.geocities.com/alanjpakula/triplecrown.html

Other/whatever:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/C...aq_CIAHits.html

http://www.livejournal.com/talkpost...uiem&itemid=709

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0212i.asp

http://home.earthlink.net/~cacceco/1905.html

http://www.heart7.net/mcf/hambone/postwar.html

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/waryearsp5.html

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/Elkhorn6.html

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US2/REF/pk-ft102.html

http://www.democraticunderground.co…05_killing.html

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/...se/gulf_war.htm

http://www.web.net/~icact/mewg/Iraq_ICApolicypaper.html

http://www.rantburg.com/gw1/Invasion.asp

http://www.motherjones.com/cgi-bin/.../ma_273_01.html

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...satoday/4938243

http://www.democraticunderground.co…ID61/18939.html
You maybe have a lot of these, but I am too tired to check out that there is no “over-lapping”.

Read carefully - do not take anything as a given fact - cross-check, see what is most believeble and look for counter-arguments.

And do not be another lamb in the flock.

Have a nice read.

Henry from Finland (living in Russia).

34

The biggest paybacks will come in the form of reneged oil/business deals by the new government of Iraq. And they will be substantial.

35

No more cheese.

36

I hope everyone can forgive the French for being an independent nation. Bush got the regime change attempt he wanted, Rumsfeld is talking about potential casualties right now. The French have offered to help us in the event of a chemical attack or some other circumstances. It’s an olive branch. I would like to go back to Paris some day.

[sub]Maybe riding on the back of a M1 Abrams. Muhahahahahaha. That’s my humor. It may not be funny, but it’s mine. [/sub]

37

I would be more worried about what the French are going to do to the US. I hear they are already spitting in the wine and cheese before it sending it over…

38

I’m a lot more worried about the price the world will make the US pay for crossing it, and how long it will take for the US to be trusted again. The answer to the latter is, I think, January 20, 2005, at noon Washington time. Or maybe the same date in 2009.

39

How dare those French leaders actually represent the opinions of their own people, instead of a foreign government’s! The ultimate doublecross!!

40

Did the French hold a referendum on how to vote in the UN SC? Dare I say it? Cite? Not a public opinion poll, not a bunch of op-ed pieces, but an actual vote?