# What purposes are behind the claim Hamas proposes to exterminate the Jews? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898 "2008-05-19T21:17:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/1 "2008-05-19T21:17:07Z")
At [the suggestion of Sevastapol,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9815667&postcount=229) I thought I’d double-check my beliefs about Hamas’ goals and see if they are reasonable. I’ll state certain assumptions I have about Hamas and invite challenge in the interest of fighting my own ignorance on the subject. Whenever possible, I’d like cited references to official statements by Hamas (or other relevant parties) that either tend to support my assumptions or tend to disprove them. I’d like to make perfectly clear that all assumptions listed below are subject to challenge and I will not use emotional appeals to defend any of them, nor accuse challengers of using emotional appeals if they come to the thread with facts/quotes/cites. Assumptions regarding Hamas’ plan for a Greater Palestine [ul][li]Hamas wishes to unify all territory currently occupied by Israel, Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank as a single state called, for the purposes of this discussion, “Greater Palestine”[/li][li]The governing system of Greater Palestine will be, at least at first, modeled on the parliamentary Knesset, including proportional voting and elected representatives and a largely ceremonial head of state (as is Israel’s President, currently). I make this assumption on the idea that some kind of attempt at a smooth transition will be made.[/li][li]All Palestinian refugees from the various wars now camped or housed or otherwise living in Syria, Egypt and Jordan, as well as their descendants, are offered the right of return.[/ul][/li] Assumptions regarding Hamas’ behaviour after such a unification [ul][li]Hamas itself may undergo radical change as a result of getting what it wants, as described above. I’m assuming the leadership will remain politically active.[/li][li]Hamas has stated its desire for Greater Palestine to be an official Muslim state[/li][li]Hamas has stated its desire in various ways for Israel to be “destroyed” or “obliterated” or “driven into the sea”. I’ve heard frequently that such rhetoric is for “internal purposes only”, i.e. to whip up the Muslim population. I don’t know how much of this attitude will persist in Greater Palestine. I’m assuming at least some of it.[/li][li]If the Muslim population ever exceeds the Jewish population (I’m assuming this is quite likely given a full right of return and the relative birth rates of the two cultures), votes will start to favour Muslim goals over Jewish ones. Constitutional protections for minority rights will be gradually stripped away. I base this assumptions on the actions of Muslim governments elsewhere. Political violence and assassination will become increasingly common. If the Jews don’t actively resist (I think they will, but I’m assuming Hamas expects them to be passive), Greater Palestine will eventually become an officially Muslim state, with Jews possessing few protections. They’ll become subject to increasing official and unofficial harassment and left with two choices - emigrate or rebel.[/ul][/li] My question is: am I completely off-base here? Do any of the above assumptions demonstrate that I’ve been suckered somehow, by somebody? If so, to what end? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/2 "2008-05-19T22:45:07Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What purposes are behind the claim Hamas proposes to exterminate the Jews? A factual and truthful statement of the facts. It’s a good purpose to have, I think. I suppose that there are a number of ways that we could slice that. The easiest and most visceral sort of cite, of course, is to check out videos of [Hamas, in their own words.](http://www.pmw.org.il/tv-hamas.htm) [Stuff like this off of Hamas TV](http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_AhmadBahr200407.asx). There are, also, other factors of Hamas’ ideology which would lead to a war of ethnic cleansing, at best, which would probably end up being, for all practical purposes, genocide. [ > [@](#): > > “Jews are a people who cannot be trusted,” Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas told the faithful. “They have been traitors to all agreements — go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Look what they are doing to us.” > > At Al Omari mosque, the imam cursed the Jews and the “Crusaders,” or Christians, and the Danes, for reprinting cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. He referred to Jews as “the brothers of apes and pigs,” while the Hamas television station, Al Aksa, praises suicide bombing and holy war until Palestine is free of Jewish control. ]([http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html)) [ > [@](#): > > Radwan Abu Ayyash, deputy minister of culture in Ramallah, ran the Palestinian Broadcasting Company until 2005. Hamas “uses religious language to motivate simple people for political as well as religious goals,” he said. “People don’t distinguish between the two.” He said he found a lot of what Al Aksa broadcast “disgusting and unprofessional.” > > Every Palestinian thinks the situation in Gaza is ugly, he said. “But what is not fine is to build up children with a culture of hatred, of closed minds, a culture of sickness. I don’t think they always know what they are creating. People use one weapon, language, without realizing that they also use it against themselves.” > > Itamar Marcus of Palestinian Media Watch, an Israeli group, said Hamas took its view of Jews from what it considered the roots of Islam, then tried to make the present match the past. > > For example, in a column in the weekly Al Risalah, Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that “suffering by fire is the Jews’ destiny in this world and the next.” > > “The reason for the punishment of burning is that it is fitting retribution for what they have done,” Mr. Astal wrote on March 13. “But the urgent question is, is it possible that they will have the punishment of burning in this world, before the great punishment” of hell? Many religious leaders believe so, he said, adding, “Therefore we are sure that the holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.” > > At the end, Mr. Marcus points out, Mr. Astal switches from “harik,” the ordinary word for burning, to “mahraka,” normally used to connote the Holocaust. > > Some Hamas videos, like one in March 2007, promote the participation of children in “resistance,” showing them training in uniform, holding rifles. ]([http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html)) There are other quotes out there, of course. I’m not going to provide an exhaustive list. I will, however, cite a bit [from their charter](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm) > [@](#): > > Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised. > […] > Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: > > ``` > "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). > > ``` And of course we can take note that Hamas clearly can delineate between Israel, Jews and Judaism. So when they say their war is with Jews, they mean _Jews_. > [@](#): > > Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.” [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Hamas wishes to unify all territory currently occupied by Israel, Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank as a single state called, for the purposes of this discussion, “Greater Palestine” [/quote] The Golan is more of a Syrian issue. But yes, Hamas has stated numerous time that they consider all of Israel to be Palestine, and to be ‘liberated’. Cites upon request. [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] The governing system of Greater Palestine will be, at least at first, modeled on the parliamentary Knesset, including proportional voting and elected representatives and a largely ceremonial head of state (as is Israel’s President, currently). I make this assumption on the idea that some kind of attempt at a smooth transition will be made. [/quote] Well, that’s the problem. As the vast majority of Israelis show no signs of wishing to relinquish sovereignty and both Hamas and the PA have a record and current habit of spreading incitement to violence, it’s hard to imagine any “Great Palestine” forming through anything but violence. A two state solution, in time, that leads to a federation? Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/3 "2008-05-19T23:12:13Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] There are, also, other factors of Hamas’ ideology which would lead to a war of ethnic cleansing, at best, which would probably end up being, for all practical purposes, genocide. [/QUOTE] I’m sure that’s what they want, but it’s not going to happen, because the Israelis would kick their ass just like they kicked the ass of their seven gigantic neighbors during the six-day war. Hamas and their friends are very effective against Jews dancing in nightclubs and eating at pizza parlors. Against actual armed men, they’re a joke just like Syria and Egypt and Jordan were a joke. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/4 "2008-05-19T23:17:22Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] My question is: am I completely off-base here? [/QUOTE] I don’t think so, except that (1) a decent percentage of the Palestinians are Christian; and (2) the Jewish population growth rate is a lot higher than it seems – if you look at things from a “Big O” perspective. In any event, I doubt you’d end up with a situation like Zimbabwe where the minority is pressured into relinquishing power and then gets harassed out of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/5 "2008-05-20T09:32:25Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] I don’t think so, except that (1) a decent percentage of the Palestinians are Christian; and (2) the Jewish population growth rate is a lot higher than it seems – if you look at things from a “Big O” perspective. In any event, I doubt you’d end up with a situation like Zimbabwe where the minority is pressured into relinquishing power and then gets harassed out of the country. [/QUOTE] [Wikipedia - Palestinian Christians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christian) > [@](#): > > According to the census data collected by the Ottoman Empire, the Christian population in 1914 was 24% of the modern-day area consisting of Israel/Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Turkey; today it is no more than 5%, [2] largely due to the chronic emigration of Christians and (since the 1970s) their lower birth rates. In British Mandate Palestine, Christians made up as much as 20% of the population, though some put the figure at 13%. > > And: > > Today, the majority of Palestinian Christians form part of the Palestinian diaspora. It is known that Christians make up between 40,000 and 90,000 people, or 1.1 to 2.4% of the population of the Palestinian territories. Most are in the West Bank, though there is a community of 2,000 in the Gaza Strip. The related Arab Christians in Israel number between 144,000 and 196,000, or 2.1 to 2.8% of the total population,[3] and about 8.8% of the non-Jewish Arab population. > > And: > > After Pope Benedict XVI’s comments on Islam in September 2006, five churches, among them two Greek Orthodox churches - as such, not affiliated with either Catholicism or the Pope - were firebombed and shot at in the West Bank and Gaza. No one was hurt and no one claimed responsibility.[18] Former Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya condemned the attacks and police presence was elevated in Bethlehem, which has a sizable Christian community.[19] > > The proportions of Christians in the Palestinian territories have dropped from 15 percent in 1950 to over just 2 percent today. > > Both Bethlehem and Nazareth, which were once overwhelmingly Christian, now have strong Muslim majorities. Today about three-fourths of all Bethlehem Christians live abroad, and more Jerusalem Christians live in Sydney, Australia than in Jerusalem. From the same link, Gaza is a particularly exciting place for Christians to be: > [@](#): > > In Gaza, there is a small Christian minority of about 3000 people, among a population of 1,500,000. After the Fatah-Hamas conflict in February 2006, a number of Christian shops, such as Internet cafes, pharmacies and music stores, were attacked by unknown assailants.[21] Some of these attacks have been claimed by a little-known extremist Islamic organization, calling itself the Swords of Truth.[21] On October 6, 2007, Rami Ayyad, the manager of the only Christian bookshop in Gaza and a member of the Baptist Church was found murdered.[22]. No group claimed responsibility for the killing, and no one has openly accused Hamas of persecution. Hamas spokeman, Fawzi Barhoum, said Hamas would “not spare any effort to find the culprits of this crime and bring them to justice.”[23] In February 2008, fourteen gunmen attacked the YMCA in Gaza which serves Palestinians of all religious denominations.[24]. Bombs were planted in the office and library and one of the devices was detonated, destroying thousands of books. There were no injuries or fatalities. On a brighter note, Christians, both Arab and non Arab, appear to be doing fine in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/6 "2008-05-20T13:52:03Z")
What that country needs, apparently, is more atheists. A **lot** more atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/7 "2008-05-20T14:17:32Z")
Hard to figure. Hamas is like the Klan. Anyone with a ski mask and a video camera and a ski mask can claim to be making Hamas policy. Add to the that the near-certainty that they are infiltrated all to heck by the Israelis and you get a very loose organization that is in constant discussion among itself as to what to do next. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/8 "2008-05-20T21:53:11Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Anyone with a ski mask and a video camera and a ski mask can claim to… [/QUOTE] …have two heads? ---
**Author:** ![Anomalous\_Reading](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Anomalous\_Reading](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalous_Reading)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/9 "2008-05-20T22:29:18Z")
The summary in the OP sounds about right to me as well. If and when the population tips in favor of Muslims… do you ever wonder if we gave nukes to Jews or to Israel? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/10 "2008-05-20T22:31:46Z")
[QUOTE=Anomalous Reading] . . . do you ever wonder if we gave nukes to Jews or to Israel? [/QUOTE] Gave? I know Israel has nukes, but I thought they made them on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Anomalous\_Reading](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Anomalous\_Reading](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalous_Reading)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/11 "2008-05-20T22:40:46Z")
Ok, fair point. We didn’t give. But the west helped them along… maybe naively, but helped nonetheless. It would be ironic if Israel somehow ended up the first Muslim nuclear power in the ME. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/12 "2008-05-20T22:59:21Z")
[QUOTE=Anomalous Reading] The summary in the OP sounds about right to me as well. If and when the population tips in favor of Muslims… do you ever wonder if we gave nukes to Jews or to Israel? [/QUOTE] I imagine that Israel would do the same thing that South Africa did. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/13 "2008-05-20T23:01:15Z")
[QUOTE=Anomalous Reading] It would be ironic if Israel somehow ended up the first Muslim nuclear power in the ME. [/QUOTE] I take it that you don’t consider Pakistan to be part of the Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/14 "2008-05-20T23:05:42Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] I take it that you don’t consider Pakistan to be part of the Middle East? [/QUOTE] It looks quite literally borderline, according to common uses of the term “Middle East”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-purposes-are-behind-the-claim-hamas-proposes-to-exterminate-the-jews/449898/15 "2008-05-21T01:45:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Gave? I know Israel has nukes, but I thought they made them on their own. [/QUOTE] [France](http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/)