In 1990 the head of procurement for the Israeli Air Force, Brig. General Rami Dotan, was convicted of embezzlement, fraud and taking kickbacks from aerospace companies. He was sentenced to 12 years in military prison - and demoted to buck private.
To be fair, Starfleet is not the United States military, so there’s no reason it should be assumed to act like it unless it’s shown to do so.
What about Warrant Officers?
Going back to the *officer finishing career as enlisted *side issue …
I knew a guy who was a USAF officer & pilot at the trailing end of Viet Nam. His highest rank attained was Captain (O-3).
When the USAF shrank at the end of the war, he was in effect laid off. Involuntarily separated without prejudice. Happened to hundreds of officers and many thousand enlisted troops.
He later enlisted in the USAF and was a Staff Sergeant (E-5) at the time I knew him.
He was making SSgt pay, but with his pay rate years of longevity including his officer years of service. When he eventually got enough years of service to retire I believe he’d draw retired Captain pay, not retired whatever-sergeant pay.
Looked really weird to see USAF pilot wings on a Sergeant’s shirt. USAF hadn’t had enlisted pilots since the USAAC/USAAF days in WWII, if then.
I always wondered if there wasn’t, shall we say, a bit more to his story than he was telling. But the bald facts of him being a prior officer finishing his career as enlisted to obtain a retirement pension were/are indisputable.
What do you want to know about them? Not much of a discernable question here to answer.
I think Nobody is asking if the procedures are the same for warrants as they are for line officers, ie “up or out” and separated instead of busted to ranks.
Because warrants aren’t in the regular chain of command structure, there isn’t the pressure to achieve higher rank as a career goal.
I thought he requested the demotion so that he could get away from a desk job.
Not even Private. Agreed.
Not in the movie. In the book it may have been different. But in the movie he did not ask for it.
Actually the Captain’s I know of that were commanding a ship that either ran aground or ran into another ship were not kicked out but given non-ship command duties. One from the Big “E” went on to command the Great Lakes bootcamp and the other was shuffled into a relatively minor shore-side position for one of the fleets. Neither was likely to ever make Admiral after their disgrace but they were not cashiered.
Probably but he needed other high ranking officers to protect him. On the enlisted side I got a mild rebuke and had to write an essay of all things when I missed ship’s movement as the Division Officer and our Senior Chief both put in very good words for me with the XO. There were some other areas where just being valuable protected me from minor issues. So a skilled surgeon could be protected as they would have a high value.
Star Fleet does not follow US Navy rules and is often inconsistent in military matters based on writers of the shows/movies.
No, though, early in Star Trek II, Bones tells him to “get his command back”, and get away from a desk job.
One of the final scenes of Star Trek IV (the one with the whales) is a court-martial trial for the command crew of the Enterprise, for their actions in Star Trek III (disobeying orders, theft of the Enterprise, sabotage of the Excelsior). Charges are dismissed for everyone else but Kirk, who’s busted down to Captain (“the duties for which you have repeatedly demonstrated unswerving ability: the command of a starship.”).
Save a planet and the rule book doesn’t always apply to you.
I’ve always wondered about this “up or out” policy. If a particular officer (or for that matter NCO) is very good at his current job level, say captain, but it is suspected he wouldn’t make a good major, why not keeping him as a captain (while for instance still giving him pay increases on a regular basis or dependant on the judgement made about his capacities).
In my uninformed mind, the best system would be :
-Good captain, probably would make a good major : up
- Very good or good captain, but probably unable (or unwilling) to take more responsabilities : stay captain, might eventually be promoted if someday it appears that he’s now ready for a major’s job.
-Average captain : out to leave room for fresh blood.
More or less, it’s how it works for NCOs, but I could see a system where an excellent sergent could get perks for excellence at his current job, independantly of “time in rank” pay increases, while not being promoted.
Three reasons why not:
First of all, the fact that he’s a good, experienced captain in and of itself means he’ll probably be a good major - after all, it’s the same job with a bit more power and a few more responsibilities. If he doesn’t *want *to be a major, that means he lacks the drive, ambition and aggressiveness he needs to be a good officer of any rank.
Second, if he doesn’t get promoted, that means that eventually, younger, less experienced men will get promoted over him. Will he respect them? Will they have an easy time giving him orders? Will he be able to suppress his resentment and bitterness? I doubt it. Having senior men commanded by their juniors will almost always lead to discipline problems.
Lastly, the military is constantly changing, with new doctrines, new tactics and new technologies. An old officer is an outdated officer. You don’t want company commander saying, “I’ve been doing things this way for 15 years, and I’m not about to change now.”
On the other hand, it would indeed make no sense to “demote” a second lieutenant to a senior NCO rank, where the expectation is that the guy is an experienced, very reliable and capable man. At best, I guess, he could be made a Sergent.
In France at least, a senior NCO would typically not want to be “promoted” to second lieutenant for a variety of reasons, including, but not only, financial (the French army even created a dozen years ago a special grade, and originally even rank, to deal with the best senior NCOs who were deemed to be able to handle more responsibilities but refused to become mere lieutenants).
I can’t imagine demoting an officer to an enlisted rank without discharging him immediately afterwards.
One doesn’t get promoted from NCO to commissioned officer in the US system (unless you specifically apply to officer training.) You can spend your whole career advancing through the senior enlisted ranks.
Oh hell no. That would be insanity. Having the NCO/Officer split is a strength of the current system. To put officers down into the upper tier of NCO ranks would destroy this strength. A senior NCO is 50 times more valuable then a second Lt.
As I understand it, it’ll happen at the time of dismissal which has the effect of reducing their pension. Several years ago, a Major General in my good friend’s chain of command was reduced to Colonel before he was dismissed for sexual misconduct. What won’t happen is an officer being reduced in rank and then allowed to stay in. As mentioned upthread, an enlisted person can lose stripes and stay in.
Well, during the Civil War, there were a lot of brevet Promotions, which didn;t last (Custer was breveted from Captain to Major General, then back to Captain then up to to Lt Col. However, he later could be addressed as “General” as a courtesy). But Sgt to Gen?:dubious:
The same thing could happen to our hypothetical 2nd Ltnt. If he had rcvd a brevet or battlefield promo from Sgt to Ltnt (pretty common even during WWII), but it didn’t work out, he’d usually go back to Sgt.