What realistically happens as health care becomes unaffordable for all but the rich (in the US)

Wow. I teach this stuff. Where do I begin? Re: other countries. Victor Fuchs, 1970s era book, “Who Shall Live?” Interesting demographics- the primary cause of death in African Americans (at the time) until age 45 was homicide. The primary cause of death in white males until age 35 was accidents, primarily vehicular. The difference in cancer, cirrhosis, and heart disease between Nevada and Utah exceeded 200-400%. One suspects there are certain cultural differences between Utah and Nevada. So. We may have one of the finest HC systems in the world, but, as a culture, we just have a predilection for doing crazy dangerous, self-destructive stuff. Which cuts down our life expectancy, compared to nations spending less. We attempt to save premature births many others countries don’t- inflating infant mortality.We have the grey tsunami, as baby boomers age, and fewer and fewer taxpayers are paying in to cover their MUCH higher HC costs. We don’t tax HC benefits as income, a relic of WWII. We are seriously uncomfortable with death, and will pay almost anything to avoid it. Yes, 23% of the HC spend is for about 2% of the population, but in the next year, about half of that 23% is made up of individuals from the previous year’s 23%.(Seriously- about 1% of the population has ever heard a death rattle, or even knows what it is, when once it was simply a fact of life for all. Its amazing how many oncologists are Asian-Indian- I guess hinduism makes you more comfortable with dying as a step to the next cycle of life). When the time finally comes, I can’t tell how many times I and many other colleagues have been left to deal with it, because the family didn’t want to witness/deal with it themselves. And somewhere in there, we as a people have come to see health care as a right.
So- as the system works through the baby boomers (in the 60’s, there were 35 people to pay each person’s social security- that number’s down to about 2)- we WILL see the system break in places.
Predictions:
taxation of benefits as income
Universal HC insurance, to get everyone paying into the system, not to provide care to the young who rarely need it. If you don’t sign up for Medicare part D as soon as you are eligible (even if your premiums and copays would exceed your current drug costs) you will pay a penalty of a 1% increase in your premium for each month past your eligible date, and that penalty is for life.
Health care rationing- already a fact in many places, under different names. A lot of states limit Medicaid recipients to, say, 5 prescriptions a month.
Ever higher deductibles and co-insurance, and higher premiums.
Much more care at home, shifting the costs to the family.
Actually, most of the increase in HC has been absorbed by business, state and federal government. HC care costs as a % of household income has remained remarkably steady for decades, at the 5-6% mark- because households VOTE. BUt that is most assuredly starting to change, and is only going to get worse. Its called “risk sharing”.
Encouragement of DNR orders.
A lot more hospice, for a lot more conditions.
Oh, and regulation of “life-style diseases”. (this is where the battle over HC as a right is at right now). Some employers have made it a condition of employment that you don’t smoke. You smoke, you get 6 months to quit. If a hair snip shows nicotine, you are out of a job. Georgia, I believe, made it a condition of continued employment for all state employees whose Body Mass Index => Morbidly Obese to enroll in a weight loss program and so progress or forfeit employment.
You can’t get a liver transplant if you drink. The list goes on. We have as a % of the population (in 2009) 33.8% with a BMI over 30. The next nearest in “western industrialized nations” was New Zealand, with 26.5%. Australia and Canada are at 24%, and France and Germany are 12 & 14%, respectively. One reason we do twice as many bypass operations as the next closest country.
So expect the system to become less willing to provide care for problems related to personal choices, as unfair as that may sound or be.
Finally, although the sense here sounds almost axiomatic that we cannot move to single payer health care, the reality is that administrative costs in the public insurance in the US (Medicaid/Medicare) are 4.1%, while the administrative costs in the private sector are more than twice that. A lot of Medicare is now managed care, run by commercial entities. SIngle payer may just sneak up on us.
Oh- and we may institute another layer to our HC legislation, much like the UK- new drugs, procedures, and devices are subject to an analysis of their relative cost-effectiveness compared to current options, and unless a clear advantage is evident, in many countries, that treatment will not be approved for use in said country, or only through direct private pay.
The emerging consensus across the world seems to be that access to care should be determined by need, and cost determined by ability to pay- with a growing “distancing” from support for life-style diseases as an undercurrent, moving away from HC as a right.
Given that HC has come to be described as “permanent white water”, that’s about as far as my crystal ball goes.

The only good news? For decades, I have taught that the rate of health care inflation exceeds the rate of inflation for everything else in the economy. I can’t say that anymore. The new leader? College Tuition.

I dont see how single payer would work in the USA because all or at least most hospitals are privately owned. As opposed to Europe where hospitals are owned by the government.
Also as I understand it in places like France doctors, and I assume other healthcare professionals, are government employees. Would we have to change all that over in the US?

Sometimes when people say something is not a free market they say it is because of excessive regulation. If you are saying that healthcare is not a free market because of other factors, I agree. It is a bit freer for employers negotiating with insurers who can get more information and have more market power than it is for employees who can choose from one insurer and one HMO if they’re lucky, and often not even that.

Perhaps the optimal amount of freedom is in choice of providers and not in ways of paying. Kind of like non-Medicare Advantage Medicare today.

That is not what single payer means. Go back and read the posts about healthcare in Canada.
Medicare is single payer, btw. Obviously private hospitals are still there.

Well, currently it’s definitely not a free market in the sense that most people think of a free market. I’m sure a lot of that has to do with government policy, and a lot due to other reasons as well.

Regardless, the government has a strong interest in regulating health insurance. I think the ACA was designed to move toward regulated true markets for individual health insurance. But it hasn’t worked out that way, some due to design issues that need to be fixed, and some due to political sabotage. If it had been successful, I think a lot more people would be on the exchanges than there currently is. There are some states that have done fairly good with it, and others not so well…again, sabotage at the state level has played a role in it.

Not true of all of Europe.

The points made about a greying population apply worldwide. The impression I get here is that the US system suffers from excessively high administration costs and an upwards pricing spiral in the provision of treatment, for various reasons. Now what? Just about every country has a problem with its own health system, and the problem boils down to being able to provide affordable care to as many people as possible. Worldwide, the main solution is to fund medical treatment through insurance, whether a state-run scheme or private - or both together. This too entails a huge amount of bureaucracy, but the tendency of the insurers to demand lower costs means that the providers cannot pad their bills by providing diagnosis or treatment that is expensive and sometimes not even really necessary.
Back to the original point; would it be pitchforks in the street if medical care becomes unaffordable for all but the wealthy? That is already the case in many Third World countries.

Thank you for coming out of lurker mode to post, that was very informative. I do have a few questions though.

  1. I liked your response, but I feel like it didn’t really address why we spend 18% of GDP on health care while other wealthy nations spend 8-12%, or what we can do to reduce our spending to more reasonable and sustainable levels. Also US health spending didn’t really explode until the 1980s. In 1980 we were spending 9% while most of Europe was spending 5-8%. In the last 40 years, we’ve grown spending by 9% while most of Europe only saw levels of spending grow by 2-4%. Why did medical inflation hit the US so hard from 1980 onward compared to the rest of the wealthy world? I don’t know about the rest of the world, but I think we were only spending about 6% of GDP on health care in 1960, up to 9% in 1980. A fairly reasonable level of growth. Then growth exploded in the 80s and 90s.

  2. As far as lifestyle problems, yes the US has a high obesity rate. But really not much higher than places like Australia. But more than that, the US has a very low smoking rate. Places like Ireland, Greece or Francehave much higher smoking rates than the US, but their health spending is still half what ours is. If lifestyle is the problem, I don’t understand why. Also I once made a post on this board comparing the health costs per capita between the 50 states. Some states have higher obesity and smoking rates than others, but there wasn’t any real connection that I could see. States with high obesity and high smoking rates were about the same per capita cost as states with lower obesity and smoking rates. Basically both when comparing states within the US, or comparing nations there doesn’t seem to be much of a correlation between health spending and the lifestyles of the citizens (regarding obesity and smoking).

  3. I would support a system like the UK NICE program, which I think says any therapy that doesn’t provide 1 year of quality adjusted life years for every 35,000 pounds isn’t covered. Do you know what a reasonable cutoff would be for the US system? Can the US just wholesale implement the systems of places like France and the UK? They already did all the research on comparative effectiveness and cost effectiveness, why can’t we just import it and create a health system based on that?

  4. As far as rationing, I believe in the US we get far more care in certain areas. More prescriptions, more surgeries, more scans, etc compared to other OECD nations. Do we have anything to show for that? It was my understanding from Atul Gawande when comparing medicare in high vs low service areas, the outcomes were about the same. People were buying care that didn’t help much.

  5. Because so many powerful interests like our system, is any kind of reform that reduces prices and unnecessary procedures possible either via the public sector or the private sector? Personally I’d love to see a company like walmart try to address health care. They would apply a level of efficiency and transparency that is lacking. But I don’t know if I see politicians ever allowing that to happen, let alone single payer.

The problem is that healthcare is an abstract concept for many people. healthcare isn’t like food, where you need a set amount every day.

As long as people have public health care (clean drinking water, sanitation, vaccines, adequate nutrition, worker safety laws, etc) as well as rudimentary personal health care (cheap prescriptions, cheap medical devices and medications they can buy OTC) then health care is more of an abstract idea. Most people go most of their lives without needing expensive health care. By the time they do, they are usually on a public plan like medicare or medicaid.

Even if you have diseases like diabetes, hypertension and high cholesterol, there are many very cheap off patent meds that can treat them. So for $12/month in prescriptions and some lifestyle changes you can combat some pretty serious chronic diseases.

So I don’t know if/when the pitchforks get pulled. Even if health care becomes unaffordable, most people don’t use much anyway so it is still a theoretical concept to them. Even if they know they will need it someday.

As already noted, this is not true in much of Europe and is not true in Canada.

In Canada, by way of example, most doctors are in private practice, and those who aren’t work for hospitals or research institutes, or, very commonly, have private practices and hospital affiliations. Hospitals themselves are rarely US-style for-profit businesses (a very small number are) but they aren’t run by the government, either. They are independent non-profits typically run by a board of trustees. As far as single-payer is concerned, it doesn’t matter. The single-payer system just pays the bills to whatever the entity happens to be, public or private.

We used to have private hospitals in Canada, but once Medicare came in, they couldn’t compete with the government sector. That is, a non-profit public hospital could operate on the amount Medicare paid for hospital services, but for-profit private hospitals could not make a profit on the rates the government paid. I think all hospitals now are either publicly operated, or private non-profits, often with their roots in religious charitable hospitals .

I can only speak for Canada, but no, the doctors are not government employees. They operate their own clinics on a personal profit basis, charging Medicare and getting paid for their services. They’re independent contractors.

If they want admitting privileges at a hospital, they have to apply to the hospital, which makes the decision based on professional factors: what is this doctor qualified for? GP? Cardiology? Surgery, and if so what kind? Etc. It’s not tied to profit in any way.

Agreed, more or less. But (speaking for Ontario, at least) hospitals are not “publicly operated” which implies that they’re run by the government. They’re publicly funded in respect to capital and operating grants, but their actual operation is generally in the hands of an independent board of directors or trustees. Also, private for-profit hospitals have been grandfathered, though the only one in Ontario I can think of is the Shouldice which is a specialty hernia center.

The Shouldice Hospital is a good example of the blend of single-payer with private providers. People come from all over the world (mostly from the US) to get hernia repair at the Shouldice because of their reputation and are no doubt charged whatever the market will bear, but Ontario patients get it for free because they have to accept standard OHIP rates, so it’s fully paid for by the public plan.

Single payer could work in the US. Medicare and medicaid are single payer systems, and they cover ~120 million Americans.

There are at least 3 different kinds of health care systems.

Private insurer, private provider - both the insurance is private and the providers are private. This would be like the US employer based insurance system, or the netherlands system (which is kind of like a well run version of the ACA

Public insurer, private provider - insurance is funded through taxes, but providers are private. Canada’s medicare system, or the US medicare and medicaid systems are like this.

Public insurer, public provider - Both the insurance is funded by taxes, and the medical professionals work for the state. The UK’s NHS system is like this.

They all seem to work. The Netherlands, Canada & UK all provide high quality health care for affordable costs. What they all have in common is large amounts of government regulation of the health care industry.

Depends what you mean by “providers”. As mentioned earlier, the doctors are not public employees, but the hospitals can be public, depending on the province.

As well, I have a quibble with calling it public insurance (even though I know that term is often used). I don’t pay any premiums; I don’t pay any co-pays; I don’t have a deductible; I don’t have a financial cap on the amount of care I can receive. What insurance system runs like that?

It’s a publicly funded service, just like roads, police, fire protection, schools. It’s not insurance.

Fair points. It’s different here in Saskatchewan, where I think all the hospitals are now run by a government agency, the Saskatchewan Health Authority.

Which illustrates a point I’ve repeatedly made in these discussions: the Canadian medicare system takes advantage of the strengths of federalism. Each province gets to design its own approach to health care delivery, within the general principles of the Canada Health Act, passed by Parliament. It’s thirteen different systems in our federation, adaptable to local conditions. Single-payer doesn’t mean it’s all run from Ottawa.

I do understand the distinction, thanks. I’m curious why you bring it up. I have both healthCARE and health INSURANCE, something you assure me only the ‘rich’ have access too. So, my post seems valid. Unsure why I’d drop either or what that would prove…or what point you thought you were making other than perhaps to try and muddy the waters on your only the rich have it theme.

It’s a theme he brings up a lot. And it’s always wrong. Our system isn’t a free market. Nor is it a single payer government controlled system. It’s pretty much unique to the US and rose out of our labor history before many countries HAD healthcare/health insurance systems. Today, it’s dysfunctional for a variety of reasons, most of which have to do with the convoluted way the system evolved, and how different groups have tried to ‘fix’ it in the past (sometimes decades or even more ago) while other groups tried to block those fixes. A lot of the ridiculous hospital costs (hundreds of dollars for an aspirin or the like) are also due to levels of fixes on top of old ways of doing things or regulations or just inertial bureaucracy.

It’s also what most Americans (hell, all of them) grew up with and are used to at this point. There isn’t an easy, silver bullet fix for the system…you’d almost have to nuke the whole thing and build a new one from scratch at this point. We AREN’T just like all those other nations wrt healthcare, and can’t just change everything to be just like the NHS by snapping our fingers and wishing it were so. We would have needed to do it when the Brits did. We have 50+ years of further inertia we’d need to overcome and an entrenched system that people have grown up with for generations (who have lived here for generations).

Anyway, you are correct…it’s nothing like a free market system, and really wish the wolf pup would stop saying it is. It’s not even a crony capitalist run or private run system. It’s a hodgepodge of private, public and everything in-between, a mashed up clusterfuck that has and continues to work just good enough that the majority of Americans get relatively decent healthcare out of it. And we will continue to limp along until it does finally break for the majority. I really do wish that those saying it’s only for the ‘rich’ were right…but, sadly, they aren’t. I also wish those saying it gives the majority bad healthcare were right…but they are wrong as well. What it doesn’t do is give EVERYONE decent healthcare, and it is clunky and chunky in how it operates, as well as massively more expensive than most other countries as a percentage of GDP.

But that is a public insurer. In the US we pay taxes to fund medicare and medicaid, and then the funds to pay for health care for those recipients comes from tax revenue.

Do you think of police as a public insured service? Fire fighters? Schools? We don’t use the language of insurance for any of those services. I don’t see why we should use that language for a publicly funded health care system, especially where the hospitals are operated by the government, as in my province. I see no difference between them and schools, and the language of “insurance” being applied to this one public service, but not to others, is misleading.

I pay taxes for all those services, and the government then provides those services. Why is one called “insurance”, even though it does not fit any insurance model?

Just to be clear, I’m speaking specifically of your category of “Public insurer, private provider” and speaking in the Canadian context. I just don’t see why it should be considered an insurance system.

Similarly, your category of “public insurer, public provider”, citing the NHS in the UK is even less of an insurance model. It’s a straight-up taxpayer funded service, with some of the doctors acting as independent contractors, but some on the government payroll. Why is that described as “insurance”?

My basic point is that calling it “insurance” is misleading (not suggesting that you’re trying to mislead; but the term brings with it a certain paradigm).