# What really happened at Roswell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659 "2003-01-30T17:25:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/21 "2003-02-01T02:47:54Z")
[true believer]Because we all know that it is _much_ more plausable that there was a vast conspiracy then that an Air Force colonel gave out some initial wrong information based on some rushed reports.[/true believer] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/22 "2003-02-01T02:50:18Z")
BTW, you might not like the fact that the U.S. military is unwilling to share all it’s secrets with you, but _surely_ you can see the necessity of keeping secrets from the general public when it comes to weapons testing? ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/23 "2003-02-01T03:09:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > Some people find his opinions valuable since he has worked on classified projects, something most of us have not done. And some of us have worked on classified projects. And found our colleagues complete assholes. So what ? > [@](#): > > His relationship to Roswell is that he has interviewed many of the eye witnesses. That’s what impressed me. He was willing to take the time to check out the situation and get the straight dope instead of just dismissing it while sitting at a computer keyboard. That’s entirely admirable. But I’m not sure his abilities as a nuclear physicist (whatever they are) really count when it comes to compiling oral history. > [@](#): > > It could have been plausible, except the Air Force colonel who announced this explanation made the foolish mistake of attempting to explain the bodies also. That’s when it became obvious to many that we were, once again, not getting the straight dope from our military. They might have a good reason to lie to us, or they might believe they have good reason to lie to us, but I still don’t like it. That’s just me… You know, I think the attempt to explain the “bodies” as experiments with dropping dummies was unconvincing also. But then I don’t believe everything the US government says either. As I’ve already indicated in this thread. The bigger problem seems to me, however, that the “witnesses” to the bodies come forward very late in the story. And, while we’re about it, what about Freidman’s implicit endorsement of the dodgy maths ? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/24 "2003-02-01T05:40:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*BTW, you might not like the fact that the U.S. military is unwilling to share all it’s secrets with you, but _surely_ you can see the necessity of keeping secrets from the general public when it comes to weapons testing? \*\* I realize the need for military secrets. The world is a dangerous place for Americans. I’m convinced that some UFOs belong to us. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/25 "2003-02-01T05:42:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*[true believer]Because we all know that it is _much_ more plausable that there was a vast conspiracy then that an Air Force colonel gave out some initial wrong information based on some rushed reports.[/true believer] \*\* Are you more interested in the truth, or what is more plausible? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/26 "2003-02-01T05:48:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bonzer \* > \*\* > > 1. You know, I think the attempt to explain the “bodies” as experiments with dropping dummies was unconvincing also. > > 2. But then I don’t believe everything the US government says either. As I’ve already indicated in this thread. > > 3. The bigger problem seems to me, however, that the “witnesses” to the bodies come forward very late in the story. > > \*\* 1. Good. It ruined the credibility of the Air Force on this topic. 2. Based on their track record, that’s wise. 3. This is the first time I have heard your allegation. Why do you put the word witnesses in quotes? What exactly do you mean by “very late”? ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/27 "2003-02-01T07:39:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*Are you more interested in the truth, or what is more plausible? \*\* Ever hear of Occam’s razor? Why is it so hard to believe that the more plausible situation probably _is_ the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/28 "2003-02-01T07:45:27Z")
And why is it so easy for you to believe the _least_ plausable situation, **GOM**? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/29 "2003-02-01T09:09:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*It \*\*could \*\*have been plausible, except the Air Force colonel who announced this explanation made the foolish mistake of attempting to explain the bodies also. That’s when it became obvious to many that we were, once again, not getting the straight dope from our military. \*\* I can’t find information on this. What exactly did the Air Force colonel say about the bodies, and how does it discredit the rest of his announcement? ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/30 "2003-02-01T14:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > > 1. Good. It ruined the credibility of the Air Force on this topic. > > 2. Based on their track record, that’s wise. The US Air Force isn’t some monolithic entity unchanging in time. That they were prepared in the 90s to admit to a (justifiable) coverup of Project Mogul in the 40s and allow the circumstances to be historically investigated seems to me entirely admirable. Why should they be blanketly condemned for doing so ? To clarify for **scr4** ’s benefit, in 1997 the US government issued the report of an investigation by Capt. James MacAndrew of the USAF into the surviving records of what happened. This was reprinted by Barnes & Noble as _The Roswell Report: Case Closed_ the same year. This convincingly fleshes out the Mogul explanation for the initial reports of a crash and plausibly explains all the evidence from 1947. However, amongst UFO enthusiasts, the story had grown since then, accreting new elements. But this process really only starts when Berlitz and Moore (?) published their book on Roswell in about 1980. Now this growth might just because people were investigating and uncovering new witnesses, or it might just be a whole new layer of crap. This is when claims of alien bodies start to emerge. Some of these new witnesses were supposed to have been USAF employees in 1947, but there’s no evidence either in public statements from it or surviving official documents about any bodies. MacAndrew’s did find evidence of another project at Roswell in the 50s to test parachutes (or something, I’m doing this from memory) by dropping dummies out of planes. He therefore suggested that some of the witnesses who’d come forth post-1980 with claims to have seen bodies were actually reporting distorted memories of these dummies. As I say, I’m not convinced by this explanation. Interesting, but an unnecessary stretch. Where I disagree with **GOM** is that I don’t see this point as a credibility issue. MacAndrew’s was quite clearly putting this forth as a possible interpretation of the facts. I find this interpretation a stretch. That doesn’t reflect on his credibility as an historian reporting the available facts. > [@](#): > > 1. This is the first time I have heard your allegation. Why do you put the word witnesses in quotes? What exactly do you mean by “very late”? As I’ve already noted above, there’s a paucity of witnesses claiming to have seen bodies in 1947 before 1980. Even now, there’s only ever been a handful to have done so. It wouldn’t require much in the way of exageration, outright lying and misreporting to eliminate their stories. Furthermore, in at least one instance the witness, though widely quoted by UFO supporters, appears to be entirely fictional. This is a nurse who was supposed to have been working on the base at the time of the crash. She is supposed to have had a conversation about bodies with someone else, which this person (the mortician ? - again, I’m doing this from memory) subsequently told UFO researchers. Except that this nurse has never been convincingly identified and there’s no other evidence that she existed. So, yes, “witnesses”. [Incidentally **GOM** , in quoting it, you reedited my post into 3 points, which seems to me very bad practice. I’ve no problem with people cutting posts in replying to them or indicating ellipses within quoted text, but casually rewriting someone else’s post is dangerous. Of course, when cutting a post down for reply it’s easy to drop points you’re uncomfortable about replying to. So I’ll reiterate: “what about Freidman’s implicit endorsement of the dodgy maths ?”] ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/31 "2003-02-01T14:41:59Z")
As usual when I try to use a posh word and only check the dictionary afterwards, that should be “ellipsis”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/32 "2003-02-01T23:41:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > **Okay. Some people find his opinions valuable since he has worked on classified projects, something most of us have not done.** I’ve worked on classified military projects. My informed opinion is that Friedman is a con man and a proven liar who’s been making up the most ridiculous crap so he can get rich off gullible fools. There was no alien spaceship at Roswell; it was a Project Mogul balloon train. Space aliens have never visited this planet. No UFO has ever been seen that was not a human aircraft or device, or an astronomical or atmospheric phenomenon of some sort. That’s my opinion, from a guy who has worked on classified projects. What’s it worth to you? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/33 "2003-02-01T23:55:17Z")
As for the “bodies” there were several instances tests of dummies used as test subjects, primarily for aircraft ejection and manned balloon experiments. You can see how this can snowball: reports of flying saucers in the news, crash of a top secret radar reflector the military wants hushed up, somebody glimpses test dummies and thinks; wow alien bodies. These stories get told and retold until it becomes a legend. ---
**Author:** ![ceyjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@ceyjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ceyjen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/34 "2003-02-02T18:18:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Leap of Faith_ > To answer Ceyjen’s question, I live in Roswell So do I! ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/35 "2003-02-02T19:20:58Z")
All right, **GOM** , try reading [this article](http://www.csicop.org/si/9707/roswell.html) from CSIOP’s website (thanks for the link to the index, **mehitabel**. It points out things in the testimony of witnesses which cannot possibly be true and testimony which has changed over the years. Sorry, in my opinion, what happened at Roswell was not a flying saucer crash, and, while I’m willing to believe there is sentient life out there somewhere, I don’t believe we’ve encountered it yet. CJ ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/36 "2003-02-03T01:37:07Z")
I see that Mr. Stan has been investigating UFO’s full time for 30 years. Shows you how little can be accomplished if given enough time. ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/37 "2003-02-03T02:09:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*I’ve worked on classified military projects. > > My informed opinion is that Friedman is a con man and a proven liar who’s been making up the most ridiculous crap so he can get rich off gullible fools. There was no alien spaceship at Roswell; it was a Project Mogul balloon train. Space aliens have never visited this planet. No UFO has ever been seen that was not a human aircraft or device, or an astronomical or atmospheric phenomenon of some sort. > > That’s my opinion, from a guy who has worked on classified projects. What’s it worth to you? \*\* It tells me you are just part of the coverup! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jdeforrest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@Jdeforrest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jdeforrest)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/38 "2003-02-03T17:26:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*What exactly do you mean by “very late”? \*\* Hey, Billy Pilgrim didn’t come forward with the tralfamadorians (sp?) till late in his career either 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mske](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mske](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mske)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/39 "2003-02-03T18:02:42Z")
You should all be ashamed. All this time, and no one has [quoted Cecil] ([http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4\_052.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_052.html)) yet. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659/40 "2003-02-03T18:06:28Z")
I’m a subscriber to **Skeptical Inquirer** , and it seems to me they’vemade a pretty good case. My favorite take on Roswell, though, is Dave Barry’s. As he points out, we’ve been thgrough several presidential administrations and countless turnovers in Congress. By now, he figures, someone would be arguing about whose district got the Dead Alien Body Repository if this really happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-happened-at-roswell/151659.md?page=3)