# What really motivates people with extremely strong opinions on abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308 "2011-02-23T02:12:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/21 "2011-02-23T03:56:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I can’t really buy this. > > I am sure that is what they would answer but I do not see them really buying it. > > Imagine there were hundreds of places around the country where people brought infants and those infants then had someone stick an ice pick in their head and killed them. To the tune of 1.35 million per year in the US. Such a thing would make the Holocaust pale in comparison. > > The response and horror and loathing would be off the charts. Violent attacks against such places would be constant. People would fall over themselves trying to stop it at any cost. > > Sure, there are some very few out there who will go to that extreme but the vast majority do not. As such I am not seeing their rhetoric match their actions. So of like how the majority of abolitionists remained peaceful in their methods until the American Civil War actually broke out? Were they not serious? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/22 "2011-02-23T03:57:39Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I would have said that for the most part the times at which you notice someone either speaking about in engaging in some behaviour supporting pro-life or pro-choice positions is when they’re doing it, which doesn’t really seem that odd. I mean, the vast majority of times I have seen people mentioning their opinion is either in a discussion or the subject or in an article about the subject or in a demonstration about the subject. In which case, i’m not really sure i’d expect obvious compassion or empathy, because, by and large, those are times in which the point being made is done so with an attempt at objectivity. > > I mean, for an example, the OP doesn’t strike me as having a particularly compassionate or empathetic first post. That doesn’t mean I should consider him uncompassionate or unempathetic, it’s just that the circumstances of GD in this case lend themselves towards an attempt at reasoning versus appeals to emotion, at least in theory. > > In general, I try not to assume other people’s thinking, because by and large little seems to actually come of it except pissing off the person in question. It’s even more difficult to do when you’re talking about a group of people, and yet more so when you’re talking about groups of people that overlap only in some places. I think the more important question, practically speaking, is not why people think something, but if they do, what might be done to convince otherwise. Well demographics. Correct me if I’m wrong but the prochoice side tends to be the side for labor rights, and social programs, although it also generally includes libertarians who as a rule aren’t so supportive of taxation to support these programs. So there are counter examples. However the antiabortion side tends to be into religious coercion, scrapping social programs, and recently wars based in delusional ravings or malicious lies about “a clear and present danger”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/23 "2011-02-23T04:01:03Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So of like how the majority of abolitionists remained peaceful in their methods until the American Civil War actually broke out? Were they not serious? The slaver evil trash became violent, not generally, the abolitionists. With a [few exceptions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/24 "2011-02-23T04:02:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I can’t really buy this. > > I am sure that is what they would answer but I do not see them really buying it. > > Imagine there were hundreds of places around the country where people brought infants and those infants then had someone stick an ice pick in their head and killed them. To the tune of 1.35 million per year in the US. Such a thing would make the Holocaust pale in comparison. > > The response and horror and loathing would be off the charts. Violent attacks against such places would be constant. People would fall over themselves trying to stop it at any cost. > > Sure, there are some very few out there who will go to that extreme but the vast majority do not. As such I am not seeing their rhetoric match their actions. And how about the abolitionists that believes slavery was wrong. They demonstrated, they appealed to their legislature, they didn’t go around killing slaveowners. I am somewhat pro-life because I think Rawls makes a whole lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/25 "2011-02-23T04:04:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > If pro-lifers were just misogynists who got boners from oppressing women why not try to pass laws that allow man to have power in having women get abortions. A lot of the time after all fornicating or adulterous men want their mistresses pregnancies erased for convenience? I’m not up-to-date in the laws or acceptable practices in the Middle Ages up to the 1800’s, but this practice was definitely in effect for a considerable amount of time in Western societies and I bet it was in Eastern societies too. But you’re reaching for straws with this argument. The claim that a situation A is wrong cannot be refuted by claiming that the situation A is not worse, like A++, therefore A is not wrong. I forget the name of this particular logic fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/26 "2011-02-23T04:06:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This opinion (and the similar ones in followup about controlling sexual activity etc. are in my view exaggerated, polarizing and useless (if not actively harmful to the pro-abortion rights cause). > > As someone strongly supportive of abortion rights, I take the opposition at their word, not seeking comfort in the illusion that abortion is a “proxy” issue for them. It’s overwhelmingly a case of deep-seated religious attitudes/fervor and in some cases the non-religious conviction that ethical behavior demands the treatment of embryos and fetuses as full-fledged human beings. > > While such attitudes are in my view dead wrong and destructive to human rights and society, they are in very large part what they claim to be. Why do you think that it is dead wrong to view a fetus (lets say in the 26th week) as a full fledged human being? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/27 "2011-02-23T04:07:49Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > The slaver evil trash became violent, not generally, the abolitionists. With a [few exceptions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29). That’s my point. Similarly most pro-lifers remain calm while and use peaceful methods as the abortionists butcher hundreds of thousands of fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/28 "2011-02-23T04:10:15Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well demographics. Correct me if I’m wrong but the prochoice side tends to be the side for labor rights, and social programs, although it also generally includes libertarians who as a rule aren’t so supportive of taxation to support these programs. So there are counter examples. > > However the antiabortion side tends to be into religious coercion, scrapping social programs, and recently wars based in delusional ravings or malicious lies about “a clear and present danger”. Cites, please. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/29 "2011-02-23T04:11:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That’s my point. Similarly most pro-lifers remain calm while and use peaceful methods as the abortionists butcher hundreds of thousands of fetuses. And prochoicers remained calm peaceful during ended the enslavement of women. However for comparative calm how many"prolife" places have been bombed, threatened, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/30 "2011-02-23T04:11:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That’s my point. Similarly most pro-lifers remain calm while and use peaceful methods as the abortionists butcher hundreds of thousands of fetuses. On the upside, those fetuses can’t think and don’t have souls. So, why should society care again? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/31 "2011-02-23T04:12:11Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Cites, please. The Republican Party, do I really need to go farther? What kind of point did you think you were making? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/32 "2011-02-23T04:12:35Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > And prochoicers remained calm peaceful until the supreme court ended the enslavement of women. > > However for comparative calm how many"prolife" places have been bombed, threatened, etc.? That does not count the fact that roughly a million fetuses are murdered every year under pro-abortion laws while over the decades there have been no more than a handful of deaths due to anti-abortion terrorism. Those are the people comparable to John Brown and similar others. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/33 "2011-02-23T04:13:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Now although this method is backed by a pretty compelling analysis of costs-benefits that shows that society is probably better off with this system in place, many conservative detractors can’t stomach the idea that no-account bums get this kind of helping hand. Because it goes against their “everyone must face the consequences” philosophy. It doesn’t matter to them whether housing the chronic homeless serves the greater good. They are more concerned that some drug-addicted slacker somewhere could be getting away with free rent and groceries, and they’re not, and it is just not right! Close, but the reality is a bit more sinister than demanding accountability. The conservative detractors you mention don’t really care if BP or Exxon is accountable for the immense damage they caused. They don’t care if their political sweetheart signed backroom deals with weapons manufacturers that knowingly provided defective equipment to US troops in Iraq. It’s not about accountability. It’s about the basic tenet and common glue of conservatism: make others suffer so we can claim ourselves as superior. All political and social positions conservative politics has supported the past 70 years have adhered to this basic common belief. Their reaction to the pro-choice issue is one of those positions. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/34 "2011-02-23T04:14:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That does not count the fact that roughly a million fetuses are murdered every year under pro-abortion laws while over the decades there have been no more than a handful of deaths due to anti-abortion terrorism. Those are the people comparable to John Brown and similar others. Actually they aren’t murdered. Why don’t you educate yourself about what that word means before you use it? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/35 "2011-02-23T04:14:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That’s my point. Similarly most pro-lifers remain calm while and use peaceful methods as the abortionists butcher hundreds of thousands of fetuses. This assumes same point of view on all. You can’t describe someone as violent, or as butchering, if they have no idea what they’re doing. You can’t ascribe violent motives to someone by assigning your own moral standards to their mental state. Your argument is also hypocritical; you compare \*most \*pro-lifers not to _most_ pro-choicers, but those limited amount of pro-choice people who perform abortions. You’re literally matching up a majority and a minority; it would make equal sense for me to claim the majority of calm, peaceful-means using pro-choicers against clinic-bombing pro-lifers; an equivalently biased point. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/36 "2011-02-23T04:16:19Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > The Republican Party, do I really need to go farther? What kind of point did you think you were making? That I would like cites for what you’re claiming. I’m from the UK - i’m afraid i’m not as familiar with demographics research across the pond. So, yes, i’m afraid you need to go further. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/37 "2011-02-23T04:24:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Actually they aren’t murdered. Why don’t you educate yourself about what that word means before you use it? Just because it is legally sanctioned does not make it a legally justified killing. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > This assumes same point of view on all. You can’t describe someone as violent, or as butchering, if they have no idea what they’re doing. You can’t ascribe violent motives to someone by assigning your own moral standards to their mental state. Are you talking about fetuses or abortionists when you say “they have no idea what they’re doing”? > [@](#): > > Your argument is also hypocritical; you compare \*most \*pro-lifers not to _most_ pro-choicers, but those limited amount of pro-choice people who perform abortions. You’re literally matching up a majority and a minority; it would make equal sense for me to claim the majority of calm, peaceful-means using pro-choicers against clinic-bombing pro-lifers; an equivalently biased point. Alright then. I concede your point. However the majority of pro-lifers do not approve of pro-life terrorism while the most pro-choicers approve of abortions. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/38 "2011-02-23T04:29:16Z")
Seems to me that the most vocal anti-abortionists generally are men or women past child bearing age. Eg, those that can not concieve. Anyone have cites on this? It’s also my personal experience that most anti-abortionists could care less what happens to the child after it’s born. So you get anti abortionists who also are anti childcare programs or anti public schooling or anti vaccination. In other words, plenty of “small government” types that also believe in a totalitarian state when it comes to a woman’s reproductive rights and don’t want to help fund raising those kids. You know, I just moved here after 20+ years in China, and pot kettle black. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/39 "2011-02-23T04:30:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Are you talking about fetuses or abortionists when you say “they have no idea what they’re doing”? Well, it would be accurate to say for both. But in this case I was talking about abortionists. > [@](#): > > Alright then. I concede your point. However the majority of pro-lifers do not approve of pro-life terrorism while the most pro-choicers approve of abortions. Again, there’s still the problem of belief. Most pro-lifers, I would wager, would consider the bombing of a clinic to be murder. Most pro-choicers, however, would not consider abortion to be murder. You may claim, objectively speaking, that pro-choicers support murder in that way (though of course, I would disagree with you); but you couldn’t claim that pro-choicers support murder\* knowingly\*. If you pressed a button that you were led to believe would give you some tasty cake, but actually killed someone in the other room, it would be wrong of me to consider you to have harboured violent thoughts, the desire to murder. In fact i’d argue that you would not be a murderer, morally speaking, at all, despite the fact that the death of the person may be directly attributed to your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/40 "2011-02-23T04:33:12Z")
I don’t think all pro-lifers (and really, how did they get to claim that bit of linguistic real estate) are in it because deep down they hate women and their slutty sexual choices. But I think that, at the heart of it, a lot of them are. Maybe they don’t even _realize_ it, because so many people are really not very introspective, but in the long view it seems so obvious. ETA - to me the smoking gun is that those tend to be the same people who are against meaningful, contraceptive-oriented sex ed and against making contraception freely available for the maximum number of people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308.md?page=3)