# What really motivates people with extremely strong opinions on abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308 "2011-02-23T02:12:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/101 "2011-02-23T17:35:05Z")
Nice post by **even sven** (as usual). > [@Dogzilla](#): > > > [@VarlosZ](#): > > > > – The simplest explanation is competing interests, as suggested above. Abortion is ethically distasteful, but forcing a rape victim to carry her pregnancy to term is even more distasteful. > > Okay, then, if it’s not about slut shaming and controlling women’s sexuality, then how is forcing someone who had consensual sex (but whose birth control failed) to carry her pregnancy to term _less_ distateful? Because one is catching a bad break and the other is an atrocity? Because in one case the woman accepted the small chance that her birth control would fail, but in the other she was the victim of a brutal assault? Because if a failure of birth control earned one a pass on abortion, then anyone who wanted to terminate would just claim that the condom broke? I don’t know, the situations are just different in a number of ways. The most important of which is that a rape victim garners _an entirely different type and degree of sympathy_ than the victim of a birth control mishap. As I said earlier, it’s not so much about the arguments in favor of a rape exception hanging together logically in an airtight way, and more about the emotional response to one situation or another. (And I should clarify here again that, in the quoted post above, I was speaking hypothetically and for other people. I was not saying that I, personally, consider abortion to be ethically distasteful.) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/102 "2011-02-23T17:41:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > the pro-abortion side Dear oh dear oh dear. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/103 "2011-02-23T17:51:10Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Dear oh dear oh dear. Trust me, arguing about the semantics of abortion is a total waste of everyone’s time. Just quietly roll your eyes, be thankful that they’ve yet to stumble upon “anti-life,” and get on with it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/104 "2011-02-23T17:59:58Z")
They have managed “anti-choice” already. Funny how that didn’t bother anybody. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/105 "2011-02-23T18:03:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They have managed “anti-choice” already. Funny how that didn’t bother anybody. Because they _ **are** _ anti-choice to the extent that they do not believe a woman should have the choice that is relevant to the discussion - the choice as to whether to have an abortion. I am not pro-abortion. I think a better world would be one in which no abortions happened. I am no more pro-abortion than you are pro-child-poverty. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/106 "2011-02-23T18:13:20Z")
I’ve been thinking a lot about this thread since my initial post. I do want to stress that I agree with those who say that the issue is quite complex, and that people who oppose the right of a woman to choose abortion are not a monolithic group and may have any number of reasons for their position. I did come up with a hypothetical that I would like to pose to **Qin Shi Huangdi** and any other posters who oppose the right to choose abortion. Suppose that tomorrow a pharmaceutical company announces that they have perfected an artificial womb. Any time a woman has an abortion, the fetus is now removed and placed in the artificial womb where it can be raised as successfully as if it were being carried to term. The woman no longer has any rights to the child and never has any contact or responsibility again. From the woman’s perspective her life is identical to what it would be if she had had an abortion under current circumstances; however her fetus will develop into a living baby. Are you now pro-choice? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/107 "2011-02-23T18:13:45Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I was in hospital waiting to be taken in for the removal of a dead fetus that was not so slowly poisoning me to death. The fuckwads in charge let bible pounding nasty ass fuckwad prolifers in to lecture at me about the evils of abortion. As near as my OB/GYN could figure they saw what I was on the surgical schedule for, but had no idea _why_ but since it qualified as an abortion, they put me on the shit list of slut whores since I was also listed as single. [Nancy Klein](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE5D71E3FF932A25751C0A96F948260) is an anti-abortion nightmare. If you must use the term, please say pro-legal-abortion, and call yourself anti-legal-abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/108 "2011-02-23T18:16:33Z")
No, you are pro-abortion all right. Either we both get to label the other side with loaded terms, or neither do. Like I said, one side has done it already, and nobody cared until the shoe was on the other foot. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/109 "2011-02-23T18:19:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Either we both get to label the other side with loaded terms, or neither do. Nope. When the facts support only one of the loaded terms, only that one has a legitimate place on an anti-ignorance forum. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/110 "2011-02-23T18:20:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Either we both get to label the other side with loaded terms, or neither do. Facts and accuracy don’t enter into it? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/111 "2011-02-23T18:22:41Z")
How on this planet is anti-abortion a loaded term? YOU ARE ANTI-ABORTION!!! You don’t see the anti-death penalty people calling themselves pro-life, do you? We are not pro-abortion, I do not wang one woman to be forced to have an abortion, or forced to give birth. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/112 "2011-02-23T18:25:17Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Facts and accuracy don’t enter into it? Clearly not, given the cite he totally misinterpreted on the previous page. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/113 "2011-02-23T18:31:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, you are pro-abortion all right. > > Either we both get to label the other side with loaded terms, or neither do. Like I said, one side has done it already, and nobody cared until the shoe was on the other foot. So the controlling ethic here is: “Two wrongs make a right”? You guys are going to go round & round on this for 100 posts only to wind up exactly where you started from (only more bitter), and in the meantime you will have lost the opportunity to talk about the actual points of disagreement. Ideally everyone would use value-neutral terms, but if not just let it go. Otherwise it’s like eating a picture of a cake, if you catch my meaning. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/114 "2011-02-23T18:35:49Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I seem to recall an incident during the Bush administration in which someone was arguing against abstinence-only sex education based on studies showing that it was ineffective. The answer back was something like “Studies don’t matter because morality trumps facts.” Needle exchange programs also come to mind. To many opponents, it is easier to live with the idea of IV drug users propogating bloodborne diseases–killing off each other and endangering others when their infections spillover into the non-user population-- than any strategy that aims to prevent this from happening but doesn’t involve locking up people for life. The thought is that negative consequences deter people from making bad choices, and to be fair, that probably does apply to most situations. The mistake is in thinking this is a guiding principle for the entire universe of choices out there. And also, there’s the short-sightedness in thinking that by forcing individuals to deal with the consequences of their bad choices, innocent bystanders aren’t affected. Why should a hemophiliac who receives donated blood be put at elevated HIV risk because some silly person thinks handing a heroin addict a free needle is giving them license to shoot up? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/115 "2011-02-23T18:36:02Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > So the controlling ethic here is: “Two wrongs make a right”? It’s also not even two wrongs. And **Shodan** knows it. Every single person I know who is “pro-life” will admit they are opposed to a woman having the right to choose an abortion. They are not opposed to all choice, but they admit freely they are opposed to the relevant choice under discussion. They therefore are, by at least one legitimate definition, “anti-choice.” Every single person I know who is “pro-choice” will admit they would prefer a world in which abortion never occurred. They want zero abortions. The overwhelming majority of them support increased access to birth control of other forms, and would rather abortion was not used as a method of birth control. They are by no legitimate definition “pro-abortion.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/116 "2011-02-23T18:42:00Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I don’t think all pro-lifers (and really, how did they get to claim that bit of linguistic real estate) are in it because deep down they hate women and their slutty sexual choices. But I think that, at the heart of it, a lot of them are. Maybe they don’t even _realize_ it, because so many people are really not very introspective, but in the long view it seems so obvious. > > ETA - to me the smoking gun is that those tend to be the same people who are against meaningful, contraceptive-oriented sex ed and against making contraception freely available for the maximum number of people. That’s it. For the most part, it’s because of sex. Proof is seen when the same people try to deny options for contraceptives. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/117 "2011-02-23T18:45:49Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It’s also not even two wrongs. And **Shodan** knows it. Every single person I know who is “pro-life” will admit they are opposed to a woman having the right to choose an abortion. They are not opposed to all choice, but they admit freely they are opposed to the relevant choice under discussion. They therefore are, by at least one legitimate definition, “anti-choice.” > > Every single person I know who is “pro-choice” will admit they would prefer a world in which abortion never occurred. They want zero abortions. The overwhelming majority of them support increased access to birth control of other forms, and would rather abortion was not used as a method of birth control. They are by no legitimate definition “pro-abortion.” For the most part I agree with you, but I’m guessing \*\*Shodan \*\*doesn’t, and it’s not worth fighting over. Better to argue about the ideas you’re trying to describe rather than than the symbols used to describe them. Sorry, I imagine posts like mine are sort of a drag, but I think they’re accurate and it’s one of the few issues that catches in my craw, so what am I gonna do? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/118 "2011-02-23T18:49:43Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Every single person I know who is “pro-choice” will admit they would prefer a world in which abortion never occurred. They want zero abortions. The overwhelming majority of them support increased access to birth control of other forms, and would rather abortion was not used as a method of birth control. They are by no legitimate definition “pro-abortion.” Additionally, some pro-choice women _do_ have moral qualms about abortion and/or feel they would not, could not _ever_ choose abortion for themselves. But as a political matter, they feel very strongly that reproductive choice should be defended. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/119 "2011-02-23T18:53:39Z")
I like these terms. Anti-life…I guess they just hate self-replicated forms of organization. Down with plants, animals and bacteria! The world would be better if we were a big dead rock! Anti-choice…I guess they want a world where every decision is guided by dice rolls, or some kind of computer program ordering you around. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308/120 "2011-02-23T18:54:36Z")
The “abortion facts” site on [words](http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_38.asp) > [@](#): > > Who does the procedure? Never call him/her a doctor. They don’t deserve the dignity that “Doctor” calls forth. Also, don’t use “surgeon.” Call them “abortionists.” Never deviate from that title. The word “abortionist” is one of condemnation, of criminality, of killing. That is the label they deserve. Where do facts and accuracy come into play? As a wordsmith, one of my complaints against the anti-aborts is how they have misused the language. ETA: > [@spark240](#): > > Additionally, some pro-choice women _do_ have moral qualms about abortion and/or feel they would not, could not _ever_ choose abortion for themselves. But as a political matter, they feel very strongly that reproductive choice should be defended. And some of us Roe v. Wade is a good law that has withstood the test of time and if some people don’t like it, they should try to get it overturned instead of harassing woman about their choices in health care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-motivates-people-with-extremely-strong-opinions-on-abortion/572308.md?page=7)