# What really were the "chemical munition" plants Colin Powell showed the UN? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 29, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763 "2004-02-29T17:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/1 "2004-02-29T17:46:31Z")
IIRC, Colin Powell showed the UN satellite pictures with yellow and red squares around munition plants in Iraq, with one of the colors (can’t remember which) representing a chemical munition plant. I assume it can be stated as a fact this was incorrect, since we would have heard by now if these turned out to be actual chemical weapon plants. What did these turn out be? Regular muniton factories? Non-weapon chemical factories? I think this has a factual answer, and is not a debate. Please do not turn it into a debate, if at all possible. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/2 "2004-02-29T19:26:41Z")
(remark about Iraqi gay marriage chapels deleted by Nott to avoid widespread panic.) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/3 "2004-02-29T20:23:03Z")
There _are no such things_ as “chemical weapons plants”. Only “chemical plants”. The Bush-Babies were pretty slow to grasp this basic truth. Any good chemical engineer could make chemical weapons, & virtually all chemical plants could mass produce them. No evidence that Iraqi plant were producing Chem Weapons have been found. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/4 "2004-02-29T21:22:29Z")
**Bosda** , are you saying they were chemical plants that were not making anything used for weapons? And if so, how do you know this? Is it just an assumption, or what? I’m looking for some concrete data as to what exactly those places turned out to be that Powell showed. And please refrain from calling people “Bush babies” or whatever; we are in GQ. I would like this thread to remain in GQ, if at all possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/5 "2004-02-29T22:43:00Z")
I can’t say specifically about that one site, but one serious problem is that many suspected WMD sites were completely looted in the days after the war. Apparently, so many things were taken from suspected sites (as well as just about every other building that didn’t have a lock on the door or a guy with a gun posted out front) that the only way to really find out what was going on there is to talk to the folks who once worked there: there’s basically no physical evidence left to analyze. An older story explaining the problem: [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3068560/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3068560/) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/6 "2004-03-01T00:10:52Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > **Bosda** , are you saying they were chemical plants that were not making anything used for weapons? And if so, how do you know this? Is it just an assumption, or what? > > I’m looking for some concrete data as to what exactly those places turned out to be that Powell showed. > > And please refrain from calling people “Bush babies” or whatever; we are in GQ. I would like this thread to remain in GQ, if at all possible. If anything related to Chem Weapons had been found, Bush would be trumpting it from the White House roof. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/7 "2004-03-01T00:49:15Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > If anything related to Chem Weapons had been found, Bush would be trumpting it from the White House roof. Which I pretty much said in the OP when I wrote “I assume it can be stated as a fact this was incorrect, since we would have heard by now if these turned out to be actual chemical weapon plants.” I think you misunderstand my question here. I am asking what they _are_, not what they are not. I already know they are not what Powell said they were. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/8 "2004-03-01T01:33:01Z")
There were a variety of satellite photos bandied about in Powell’s presentation. It was never clear, to me at least, which were supposed to be chemical weapons plants, and which were supposed to be weapons stockpiles. Here’s the current take on some of the photos: > [@](#): > > Even one of the most compelling sections of Mr. Powell’s presentation, satellite photographs of suspected chemical weapons sites, appears to have been misjudged. The suspicious-looking movement at several sites of what were believed to be decontamination vehicles and trucks covered with tarps more likely involved more benign commercial activity; inspectors found no evidence of weapons production. [Powell’s Case, a Year Later](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/01/international/middleeast/01WEAP.html?ex=1078203600&en=aaac928e65b78a8a&ei=5070) > [@](#): > > Tenet indicated that a key moment came when CIA analysts saw “what they believed to be” satellite photos of material being moved from Iraqi ammunition sites. The photos appeared to be evidence of revived chemical weapons production. But the reasons for the movements have never been determined. [What Went Wrong With Iraq Intelligence?](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7894951.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/9 "2004-03-01T19:14:19Z")
Thanks **Squink** , I’ll check out those links. ---
**Author:** ![LemonThrower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LemonThrower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LemonThrower)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/10 "2004-03-01T20:00:22Z")
There remains the possibility that Iraq had WMD capabilities and they were moved to Syria or another country. Some Israeli sources claim this, and this is hardly a pro-Bush explanation (I think letting the WMD’s escape to Syria is a far worse thing than being wrong about the WMD’s in the first place). The links above include conclusions that the intelligene was “probably” false. I don’t see much in those stories beyond the obvious - we haven’t found anything so the intelligence was “probably false”. One should consider in light of such conclusions that there was some, albeit small, concrete evidence of WMD’s, although admittedly not enough to “prove” Iraq had them. You had the nuclear reactor bombed by Israel in the early 80’s. You had multiple defectors claim the nuclear and biological programs were reconstituted. Iraq did have them in the 80’s and 90’s, and even used them on the Kurds. Iraq did not account for the destruction of the WMD’s they had. Iraq soldiers had hundreds of thousands of chemcial warfare unifiorms and equipment. Finally, someone did weopanize anthrax and attack the US with it via letters, and Iraq is one of few that had the capability and motive to do this. In retrospect this is not a lot but probably enough to say claims that the CIA “exaggerated” intelligence may be unfair; indeed, the CIA was probably being prudent. If similar signals existed for 9/11, either Clinton or Bush would have been scandalized. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/11 "2004-03-01T22:29:34Z")
> [@LemonThrower](#): > > In retrospect this is not a lot but probably enough to say claims that the CIA “exaggerated” intelligence may be unfair !!! How so, and who says it was the CIA doing the exaggeration in the first place? **Bosda** asked explicitly for facts, not wild speculation and unsupported conclusions. That sort of stuff belongs in GD. ---
**Author:** ![LemonThrower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LemonThrower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LemonThrower)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/12 "2004-03-01T22:48:22Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > !!! How so, and who says it was the CIA doing the exaggeration in the first place? **Bosda** asked explicitly for facts, not wild speculation and unsupported conclusions. That sort of stuff belongs in GD. Squink, both of the articles you cited accuse the administration of exaggerating the pre-war intelligence. Technically the NYTimes article does not use the word “exaggerate,” but I don’t think you can argue that the Times article you cited isn’t making that claim by using different words. I am sorry if you don’t like me pointing out that your articles fail to prove that there were not WMD’s in Iraq before the war which were later moved to another country. This remains a possibility. I believe my response was at least as factually based and responsive to the OP as was yours. I hope you can become more tolerant of facts that do not agree with your preconceived notions. You are welcome to post in GD, but please do not tell me what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/13 "2004-03-01T23:16:39Z")
> [@LemonThrower](#): > > I believe my response was at least as factually based and responsive to the OP as was yours. Testimony from the director of the CIA vs. an unsubstantiated, and unlinked, article at Debkafile? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-really-were-the-chemical-munition-plants-colin-powell-showed-the-un/231763/14 "2004-03-02T22:12:40Z")
The president’s press secretary, Scott McClellan, addressed the [Syria Scenario today:](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040302-3.html#9) > [@](#): > > Q Any evidence that some of the WMD is hidden in Syria or in other countries? > > MR. McCLELLAN: I don’t have anything to report on that, Connie. But there are a lot of different theories out there. The work of the Iraq Survey Group continues. It’s important that they complete their work. But make no mistake about it, Saddam Hussein’s regime was a danger before the war, and everything that we’ve learned since the war only reconfirms that he was a danger. And the world is safer and better because of the action that we took. He’s certainly given us nothing to tie it to satellite photos yet.